The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

elantan

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I would change my vote accordingly.

For example if I were a Scot who despised Conservative government I would vote Labour, it's the sensible option. Since voting for the SNP I may as well cast my vote for the Conservatives.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

It's pragmatic, wasting the vote and then complaining about the Conservative government is a flawed position to take.

And what if changing your vote didn't improve things ?

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You're not answering the question I asked to try to crystalise this argument in your mind.

Assuming indy2 fails, would you continue to vote for SNP MP's given your professed hatred for the Conservatives?

If the answer is no, then you can clearly see the argument that Scotland hates the Conservatives is an unsound argument, since a vote for SNP MP's is a vote for Conservative government.

If the answer is yes, then everyone on the forum will be clear that you're a died in the wool nationalist and it doesn't matter who governs you as long as Scotland eventually becomes independent. Which is a form of populism that the left currently profess to hate. Interesting.

Everything you're trying to say here is dictated by the assumption that the SNP are a one policy party. You've completely failed to take into account that the SNP have been in power in Scotland since 2007, well before the 2014 referendum. And only had 6 MP's at Westminster up until last year.

Devolution muddies the waters. Up until 2015 people in Scotland were fine with voting Labour in Westminster elections, and SNP in devolved one's. In both cases these votes were due to a common theme. Who they think would do the best for Scotland, either in Westminster or Holyrood.

In the GE in 2010 voting Labour was seen as the best way to hold off a Tory Govt. Failed. The SNP 2011 Holyrood landslide was people starting to give up on Labour in the devolved parliament. 2015 was them giving up on Labour in Westminster as well ( Tory lite ). Whatever you think of the SNP, the perception remains in Scotland that in terms of doing what's best for Scotland in a UK setting.. that Labour gave up on their principles long ago and at least the SNP try.

Corbyn or someone like him AND looking like getting into power is the only hope left for Labour in Scotland ( Westminster or Holyrood elections ). Should a second indy ref fail, then things will simply carry on as they are until Labour get their act together and actually look like gaining power in the near future.

Other than that, Scotland will continue to vote for those they perceive as those keeping their Scottish constituents interests at the forefront. Sadly for Labour until Corbyn, those didn't include welfare sanctions among a myriad of other policies they had under Miliband and Brown.

Note. I wrote that without even mentioning the constitutional elephant in the room.

elantan

H

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I would change my vote accordingly.

For example if I were a Scot who despised Conservative government I would vote Labour, it's the sensible option. Since voting for the SNP I may as well cast my vote for the Conservatives.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

It's pragmatic, wasting the vote and then complaining about the Conservative government is a flawed position to take.

Incidentally I'm sure you've realised and won't like me informing you that if you were to change your vote accordingly then you have accepted that what others want for your country matters and what you want for your country doesn't ... as the ones u see working hard for your country and trying to make the changes are being thwarted at every turn so you have had to change your vote .to something that others will accept to work with .. your opinion and that of your fellow country men and women doesn't matter.. that will also tell you that those that are thwarting your country at every turn do not care for you or your country ... ultimately you have admitted defeat

I sympathise with your pain in learning this ... it's not a fun place to be

Moto2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I would change my vote accordingly.

For example if I were a Scot who despised Conservative government I would vote Labour, it's the sensible option. Since voting for the SNP I may as well cast my vote for the Conservatives.

Well, if your only driver was hatred for the Tories, maybe
I suspect a lot people have much more complex and multiple reasons for voting SNP over Labour

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Scottish anglophobia has been on the rise for some time. You need only look at the pro-indy blogs, facebook pages and comment sections in the media to see it. I would argue that Scottish anglophobia is far more out of control than English or Welsh xenophobia in terms of the rhetoric per capita. I'll try to find some statistics on that.

Tosh.

But you toddle on an get your figures proving it. Make sure they're official though, and fairly recent ( since you say it's growing and arguably out of control).. and please no screeching headlines based on convenient anecdotes.

Let me start you off with this one about general Scottish identity politics last year.

There was no rise in Scottish nationalism: Understanding the SNP victory

Crucially, commentators need to stop painting a picture in which the majority of Scotland predominantly base their political decision making mostly on their national identity. There has been no rise in nationalistic sentiment in Scotland. As we (amongst others) have repeatedly shown in our research, the strongest determinants of both independence and SNP support were pragmatic evaluations about economic prospects, trustworthiness and political personnel. For most people in Scotland the SNP is a normal party, that they like, hate or are indifferent to, but those evaluations for most are based on whether people agree with their policies and how they evaluate their representation.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/there-was-no-rise-in-scottish-nationalism-understanding-the-snp-victory/

elantan

Moto2 wrote: »

Well, if your only driver was hatred for the Tories, maybe
I suspect a lot people have much more complex and multiple reasons for voting SNP over Labour

They certainly do, and there are quite a few SNP voters that don't want independence as well ... just to muddy the waters and let people see the SNP are not just a indy only vote for people

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

You could argue that ... I suggest whilst doing so you also look at the rise of Scotphobia that seems to be on a huge increase also

That appears to be a consequence of the aforementioned anglophobia. To me there's no apparent increase of angst from the English towards the Northern Irish or the Welsh.

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

And what if changing your vote didn't improve things ?

Talking honestly and not from a pre-determined position I would say that my feelings towards the outcome as a Scot who hated the Conservatives would be whether the means justified the ends. Right?

Rather than just looking for "did it improve?" it would surely by a case of - in my own anti-Conservative view - not getting worse or improving. It's a guaranteed win by keeping the Conservatives out of power from that perspective.

This is why it seems that the view of voting SNP and being anti-Conservative aren't reconcilable, since voting for the SNP gives a Conservative government.

elantan

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

That appears to be a consequence of the aforementioned anglophobia. To me there's no apparent increase of angst from the English towards the Northern Irish or the Welsh.

Aye right it's all the Scots fault again ... sigh ...

elantan

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Talking honestly and not from a pre-determined position I would say that my feelings towards the outcome as a Scot who hated the Conservatives would be whether the means justified the ends. Right?

Rather than just looking for "did it improve?" it would surely by a case of - in my own anti-Conservative view - not getting worse or improving. It's a guaranteed win by keeping the Conservatives out of power from that perspective.

This is why it seems that the view of voting SNP and being anti-Conservative aren't reconcilable, since voting for the SNP gives a Conservative government.

What if you voted for SNP because you thought they were the best party to look after the people of Scotland ? Or what if you believed that Labour were basically tories with different ties ? So red tory blue tory ?