The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Thrugelmir

Moto2 wrote: »

... or may be tomorrow's verdict on whether or not May has to seek parliamentary approval before triggering Article 50
It'll go to appeal whatever the verdict but could still cause some friction.

Money rules. Not a world I wish to live in.

skintmacflint

Moby wrote: »

Of course they want control of their own country. That's why the SNP exist surely! I reckon many Scottish people don't see Brussels in the same way as the English do. Many of them see the EU as a union of States working towards a better future and solving problems through co-operation. They voted against Brexit and wish to remain in the EU....can the Union hold up against this....I doubt it sadly!

SNP have never wanted full control of our country, as far as I can work out. Not even in 2014 . They knew it would be an uphill struggle to sell, so tried really hard to convince people nothing would be much different from life in the UK. Have a read at their joke of the 650 page White Paper they issued and read up on monetary policy , shared currency preference, and defence with Scotland hiding behind NATO's big sofa. Their plans for shared services with the U.K. eg foreign offices.

I voted No and remain. I am now fine with Brexit, and want the UK to do well out of it. I will never vote to break up our UK, and would never vote SNP. I'm not alone.

If I had another vote on the EU, I would now vote Leave. I would certainly never vote to rejoin the EU without the opt outs on further integration the UK had negotiated. Suggesting Scotland leaves the UK to rejoin the EU , in order to regain control of our country is a contradiction. Your logic on this appears similar to SNP supporters who while pretending to be social democrats, don't believe or can't accept democratic decisions they don't agree with.

Moby

skintmacflint wrote: »

SNP have never wanted full control of our country, as far as I can work out. Not even in 2014 . They knew it would be an uphill struggle to sell, so tried really hard to convince people nothing would be much different from life in the UK. Have a read at their joke of the 650 page White Paper they issued and read up on monetary policy , shared currency preference, and defence with Scotland hiding behind NATO's big sofa. Their plans for shared services with the U.K. eg foreign offices.

I voted No and remain. I am now fine with Brexit, and want the UK to do well out of it. I will never vote to break up our UK, and would never vote SNP. I'm not alone.

If I had another vote on the EU, I would now vote Leave. I would certainly never vote to rejoin the EU without the opt outs on further integration the UK had negotiated. Suggesting Scotland leaves the UK to rejoin the EU , in order to regain control of our country is a contradiction. Your logic on this appears similar to SNP supporters who while pretending to be social democrats, don't believe or can't accept democratic decisions they don't agree with.

To me your position is contradictory. You say you voted remain but are fine with Brexit and would vote Brexit given another chance. I think thats confused.You clearly dont like the SNP. I dont have dog in the fight being Welsh but their support is clearly massive whether you like it or not and whatever you think of their White Paper. My point was that what was a hard sell in 2014 has been made instantly easier by Brexit. I repeat.... the SNP got the result they wanted on June 23rd and they'll bide their time for another referendum and they'll make sure the result is different this time. We are clearly moving towards economic hard times. The SNP will be all over that and the reasons for it.The Brexiteers who are surely Unionists as well have ensured the Union will die Im afraid. You cant logically believe in the Union and be a Brexiteer. The Union is based on the principles of sharing sovereignty and not encouraging the forces of nationalism, co-operation between nations. Scotland considers itself a nation I would say. Farage was Sturgeons greatest recruiting master!

TrickyTree83

Moby wrote: »

To me your position is contradictory. You say you voted remain but are fine with Brexit and would vote Brexit given another chance. I think thats confused.You clearly dont like the SNP. I dont have dog in the fight being Welsh but their support is clearly massive whether you like it or not and whatever you think of their White Paper. My point was that what was a hard sell in 2014 has been made instantly easier by Brexit. I repeat.... the SNP got the result they wanted on June 23rd and they'll bide their time for another referendum and they'll make sure the result is different this time. We are clearly moving towards economic hard times. The SNP will be all over that and the reasons for it.The Brexiteers who are surely Unionists as well have ensured the Union will die Im afraid. You cant logically believe in the Union and be a Brexiteer. The Union is based on the principles of sharing sovereignty and not encouraging the forces of nationalism, co-operation between nations. Scotland considers itself a nation I would say. Farage was Sturgeons greatest recruiting master!

I said I wouldn't post for a bit, however this is precisely the type of non-argument that irks me, I'll put aside my self-imposed ban for a quick interjection.

You say his position is contradictory because he voted to remain but he's fine with brexit. I say that's a privilege allowed in a free thinking society, to be able to change your opinions based on reason and evidence. You say he's confused, perhaps he's enlightened and you're dogmatic? If you don't allow yourself to change your opinions based on reason and evidence then what you've got is dogma. Which is how your post above comes across. As do other pro-independence supporters, remainers and liberal left supporters.

You thought it was a hard sell in 2014, it was easier, oil was high, the arguments for independence were daz white compared to having been dragged through the mud as they were in 2014. The same argument that won in 2014 will win out forever and a day until the SNP or another Scottish government get to grips with it and deals with it. And you all know which one that is.

You say the SNP support is clearly massive - do you have any idea of the size of the vote they got in the 2016 Scottish parliament elections? I've posted it many times. It's around 25% of the electorate. Truly gargantuan.

You say we're clearly moving towards economic hard times. But as is evident on the threads discussing Brexit that's not a forgone conclusion, you're presenting your opinion as fact.

The brexiteers who support the Union have ensured that it's died? That's hysterical conjecture, and another opinion presented as fact. And what the hell is this... "You cant logically believe in the Union and be a Brexiteer", there is no logic in that statement. Of course people can believe in the Union and want to leave the EU, they are not mutually exclusive (you know what that means right?).

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=mutually%20exclusive

How you cannot see what you've said about nationalism being contradictory within one post is truly remarkable. You say the Union is based on sharing sovereignty and not encouraging the forces of nationalism. Yet isn't that what some Scottish people have been doing for years by voting for the divisive SNP? Yes.

elantan

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9776/robin-mcalpine-why-our-sunshine-grievance-our-most-important-resource



Interesting wee piece ... anyone got any opinions ?

kabayiri

beecher2 wrote: »

How very democratic of you.

The Scottish separatists don't believe in democracy. It's fine for 8.5% of the population to dictate to the rest of the Union on key EU matters, for example.

sss555s

kabayiri wrote: »

The Scottish separatists don't believe in democracy. It's fine for 8.5% of the population to dictate to the rest of the Union on key EU matters, for example.

You've hit the nail on the head.

What's right for Scotland should be decided by the country of Scotland and not the SE of England.

I'd expect all Scottish "separatists" to be happy in a democratic Scotland.

CLAPTON

If I understand the Court ruling today, the need for a parliamentary vote for article 50 is based on the view that it will affect peoples rights.

Presumably if there was a Iscotland referendum that showed a majority for independence, then this could be overturned by a UK parliament vote on the same basis.

.string.

Moby wrote: »

To me your position is contradictory. You say you voted remain but are fine with Brexit and would vote Brexit given another chance. I think thats confused...

I will also stick up for skintmacflint, and have much the same viewpoint. I was very much for remaining in the EU and in fact still think that would have been the better decision, but time has moved on, In reaction to Brexit, the powers of even closer union have strengthened in Europe so that I would probably marginally still vote to remain but only, repeat only, if the deal that Cameron got was retained as well as our opt-outs and also on the understanding that the UK Government would lay about the federalists in Europe.

But to rejoin the conditions would likely be unacceptable and I would not want any part of it.The movement/pretence by separatists in Scotland to join the EU is national suicide in my opinion being a dilution of national identity and Scottish influence on Scottish lives. I could elaborate on that but it's been said many times so just I'll just list two items:

1 Decrease of native Scots due to the influx of foreign workers needed to pay for Pensions and increase the economy.

2 Ever closer Union.

It is a potential tragedy that the Nat lot can't/won't see that coming.

Brexit having been decided I, like skintmacflint put that episode behind me and hope and expect all of the UK to work towards making a success of Brexit, not denigrating it continually as some do and which is a very destructive stance.

.string.

CLAPTON wrote: »

If I understand the Court ruling today, the need for a parliamentary vote for article 50 is based on the view that it will affect peoples rights.

Presumably if there was a Iscotland referendum that showed a majority for independence, then this could be overturned by a UK parliament vote on the same basis.

Yes indeed, if it ever got legal status that is.

But also the notion to call a referendum is something that should be debated on the same ground for example because it will affect the rights of Scots living in the rest of the UK.

There are other things that could be challenged legally and I would hope and expect some effort from Unionists in Scotland and elsewhere to challenge any new attempt at a referendum in the courts let alone what May will decide to do.