The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No. You've confused the desire for independence with the SNP. They are the political vehicle that will likely deliver it, but not the driving force behind it which is the voters themselves. The 2014 Scottish independence referendum normalised the idea, Brexit has accelerated things and now encompasses a lot of people who would never give the SNP ( should they even survive long post independence ) the time of day.

There was a window of opportunity, where with the wind blowing in the right direction, allowed the SNP to bring the matter to the fore. that time has passed. The rhetoric now is all political posturing. Without Independence on the agenda support for the SNP may well waver. As with any party the hard core support is actually very small.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Because you've got cabinet members like Leadsom waxing lyrical about opening up glorious new export and trade deals within the food and drink industry. A quarter of which comprises entirely of Scottish whisky, and where a majority of the other ( fishing ) is going back to Holyrood if the UK Brexit's outwith the single market. Going altogether if Scotland leaves.

Yes.

I've read them and have been for years. They are no longer set in stone after the Brexit vote. Trade is uncertain for everyone, everywhere in every sector. Mitigated completely if and independent Scotland joins EFTA or if rUK does a good deal with the EU and Scotland remains within it.

Please listen when people try to tell you that any shockingly bad deal between a hypothetical iScotland - rUK in future destroying trade. Will by it's very nature mean a shockingly bad deal between the EU and rUK destorying trade.

2 hours agohttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37838890

Granted.

And accepted that the rUK would also suffer in such a situation.

Now tell me who controls their own trade should that situation arise?

I think I've managed to finally get you to understand my point.

Becoming independent and joining the EU is not the solution to that problem! Because in the EU you will not be independent to strike your own trade deal with the rUK, or the rest of the world.

Only ~80,000 Scottish jobs are related to EU trade.

The rest will be related to the other 89% of trade you do.

Being outside of the EU, Scotland will only stand to lose 11%, but the UK as a whole will have the ability to strike our own deals, as Switzerland and Norway have done who enjoy a much higher salary per capita and standard of living. It won't take much effort for Scotland to replace whatever is lost from the 11%, either taking up the slack from EU trade that is lost with the rUK or by expanding out further into the world.

But you seem insistent on using Brexit and anything else to support independence even when it's staring you in the face that it's not the solution to surviving Brexit.

You seem intent on choosing the tougher path just to achieve independence.

sss555s

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Granted.

And accepted that the rUK would also suffer in such a situation.

Now tell me who controls their own trade should that situation arise?

Becoming independent and joining the EU is not the solution to that problem! Because in the EU you will not be independent to strike your own trade deal with the rUK, or the rest of the world.

Only ~80,000 Scottish jobs are related to EU trade.

The rest will be related to the other 89% of trade you do.

Are you seriously implying anyone voted for Brexit so the UK could have the chance to negotiate it's own trade deals?

Juncker has already stood there with a stern face and quoted that the UK will have to start at the beginning when trying to establish a trade deal with the EU. Canada took 7 years.

If an EU Scotland were to lose some trade to the UK they could pick up trade in Europe seeing as a post brexit UK may be a more expensive source.

islandannie

sss555s wrote: »

"The little powers that Scotland has are more than a great indicator that Scotland can manage Scotland better than Westminster can"

Is that so?
If it can manage better and you seem to believe it could.

Would you please ask any of the Scottish government representatives you have access to how they can explain why the governments of Wales,Northern Ireland,the Republic of Ireland and the Westminster Government have managed to pay earned agricultural subsidies in a timely fashion yet the SNP government cite the incredible complexity of the payment system that has so far delayed payment of over £15,000 owed to me for a period in excess of 10 months?

The SNP alone are so incompetent as to allow this to happen,lord knows what would happen if they are given further powers.

TrickyTree83

sss555s wrote: »

Are you seriously implying anyone voted for Brexit so the UK could have the chance to negotiate it's own trade deals?

Juncker has already stood there with a stern face and quoted that the UK will have to start at the beginning when trying to establish a trade deal with the EU. Canada took 7 years.

If an EU Scotland were to lose some trade to the UK they could pick up trade in Europe seeing as a post brexit UK may be a more expensive source.

Do you know who Daniel Hannan is?

Do you know why I voted to leave?

Do you understand how the EEA/EFTA works?

Do you know what the EU customs union is and how it works?

If the answer to all of these is Yes, then you will understand why I voted to leave. And you'll understand why Juncker has sod all to do with UK trade deals after Brexit with the possible exception of the deal with the EU.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Do you know who Daniel Hannan is?

Do you know why I voted to leave?

Do you understand how the EEA/EFTA works?

Do you know what the EU customs union is and how it works?

If the answer to all of these is Yes, then you will understand why I voted to leave. And you'll understand why Juncker has sod all to do with UK trade deals after Brexit with the possible exception of the deal with the EU.

Well I hope you and Mr Hannan aren't too disappointed if it doesn't turn out that way. I've read a few pieces now stating that the UK might be too big for EFTA/EEA. Though there was a chap on Scotland Tonight yesterday rolling out the red carpet for Scotland.

Do you think EFTA/EEA is going to be a real option going forward for the UK ? This is a genuine question given the articles I've read recently.

Lesley Riddoch: Are Scots eyeing wrong Euro prize?

...So might Brexiting Britain beat Scotland to the chase? Hanibalsson thinks not; “One, Britain is too big for the EEA; two, its government isn’t keen and three, EU members would have to approve Britain joining the EEA and they’re not best pleased with Britain right now.” It would be a different story for an independent Scotland, he thinks, and maybe more desirable.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/lesley-riddoch-are-scots-eyeing-wrong-euro-prize-1-4273338

Full article at link. Also Lesley Riddoch is a real advocate of Nordic type policies ( for the benefit of article bias ). Ignore the deranged comments.

elantan

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Hamish is a Scottish tory voter, sss555s and Beecher are not SNP, neither is elantan who I think ( and she can correct me if wrong ) is more Green in her leanings. Myself and I think Leanne are.

In fact there seems to be a pretty wide range of views on Scottish independence on leaning to the pro side here whether it be through Brexit or from previously held views. currently ranging from Tory right through to Green or not affiliated with any party.

This alone should speak volumes. Hamish speaks for himself and gives his own take in his answers on what's worth paying/currency etc etc. But they are very far from reflecting a wide range of views on independence, nor definitive either.

I'm more Green than SNP but have to admit don't hold any alliances to any particular party, I like to look at them all individually past, present and what they plan for the future

Thrugelmir

sss555s wrote: »

Are you seriously implying anyone voted for Brexit so the UK could have the chance to negotiate it's own trade deals?

Only 5% of UK companies export to the EU. That leaves 95% that don't. Like the fad for references to GDP. There's a lot written that's way off the mark.

sss555s

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Only 5% of UK companies export to the EU. That leaves 95% that don't. Like the fad for references to GDP. There's a lot written that's way off the mark.

That's interesting.

Here are some more interesting figures...

What those exports are as a proportion of all exports—by this measure about 44% of the UK’s exports go to other EU countries, while somewhere between 8-17% of exports from other EU countries go to the UK (depending on how you measure it).

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Well I hope you and Mr Hannan aren't too disappointed if it doesn't turn out that way. I've read a few pieces now stating that the UK might be too big for EFTA/EEA. Though there was a chap on Scotland Tonight yesterday rolling out the red carpet for Scotland.

Do you think EFTA/EEA is going to be a real option going forward for the UK ? This is a genuine question given the articles I've read recently.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/lesley-riddoch-are-scots-eyeing-wrong-euro-prize-1-4273338

Full article at link. Also Lesley Riddoch is a real advocate of Nordic type policies ( for the benefit of article bias ). Ignore the deranged comments.

I will accept if we don't get what I prefer.

I'm still correct whether we get EEA or not that leaving the EU puts the UK in control of its trade arrangements. Scotland in the EU has to surrender that facet of independence.