The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

islandannie

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I'm afraid plain old fashioned democracy and the ballot box is well against you on that one.

Hoist by your own petard comes to mind!

mollycat

mrginge wrote: »

Interesting.
Who is representing England in these talks?

Exactly....these people don't understand it was a UK wide referendum.

The debate is what the UK does about Brexit, not the individual "countries".

The propagandists here would like to fool the more dimwitted of us that England is somehow represented in these talks and Scotland, Wales and NI aren't.

The propaganda spouted here is now so tissue thin you could watch the telly through it! :rotfl:

elantan

mrginge wrote: »

Interesting.
Who is representing England in these talks?

I agree it's quite sad England isn't being represented, I've said for years England should have its own parliament, but Cameron brought in EVEL as a poor substitute ... and let's face it that ain't exactly working out well

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

There are a great many devolved matters which Brexit will affect and change. The devolved leaders absolutely need to be involved and their suggestions and input respected and taken seriously. Otherwise you're saying that it's an English only issue and that everyone else should be ignored even when it affects their devolved remits massively.

Is that what you're saying ?

This is a beautiful illustration of what I've just been saying about the "them and us" mentality.

The same mentality UKIP foster, is the same mentality the SNP foster.

The UK EU referendum has as much to do with England as it does with Scotland - absolutely nothing.

It was a pan-UK vote. A vote in Dundee counted the same as a vote in Southend, which counted the same as a vote in Abercynon and Portadown. And even further besides!

The momentum is shifting against independence simply because you all keep trotting out these bu**sh*t memes. It would be so easy this day and age on social media to get the meme-buster articles trending, get them in the social media news, spread it around and discredit SNP MP's and indy supporters who propagate these memes.

Instead of being honest about the cost of independence and the pro's and con's, they lie, why? Is it because the argument cannot overturn approximately 10% of the electorate? Is there in fact an argument at all? Do you not approach these issues honestly because they cannot be approached honestly whilst still maintaining a hope of winning such an argument?

Nicola Sturgeon is now using her very own version of project fear, a complete u-turn from a position where she once derided such activities.

Something along the lines of:

"If Scotland leaves the single market it'll cost 80,000 jobs!",

Whilst staying ominously quiet about the cost of leaving the UK single market. As I've said before - duplicitous. A divisive agenda with only one aim in mind.

I'm sorely sorry that so many have bought into these lies, and sincerely hope that the No movement can gain enough traction to not only win again, but hammer into the Yes 45%. Kill the independence argument under the auspices of the SNP for good and relegate the SNP back to where they belong, holding on to their policies of division, false hope and lies.

If another independence party comes to the fore who want to talk honestly about it and can win the argument from a position of truth, all power to them and yourselves.

islandannie

There are a great many devolved matters which Brexit will affect and change. The devolved leaders absolutely need to be involved and their suggestions and input respected and taken seriously. Otherwise you're saying that it's an English only issue and that everyone else should be ignored even when it affects their devolved remits massively.

Is that what you're saying

How can you in all honesty believe that devolved parliaments should have such power which enables them to overrule the UK government policies?

Pray tell me.

.string.

We have learnt in recent years both in Scotland and then in the whole of the UK, how divisive and damaging these referendums can be when dealing with the subject of how people feel about who they are. They leave a horrible legacy of division too. I am not surprised that the Scots don't want a reinforcement of that division with another referendum. Also the SNP are so besotted by their one-track mindset that they try now to sabotage the Brexit negotiations which the UK Government will soon begin. In doing that they sabotage the future of all Scots in with the rest opf the population if the result is less advantageous to the UK than it would have been if proper cooperation had been provided as was their duty to Scottish people, to look after their future whatever the result of a referendum may be (if it happens), and, frankly, their obligation to the rest of us. Narrow minds with no honour.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

This is a beautiful illustration of what I've just been saying about the "them and us" mentality.

The same mentality UKIP foster, is the same mentality the SNP foster.

The UK EU referendum has as much to do with England as it does with Scotland - absolutely nothing.

It was a pan-UK vote. A vote in Dundee counted the same as a vote in Southend, which counted the same as a vote in Abercynon and Portadown. And even further besides!

I've never disagreed with that. However, Scotland voted as a country to remain, as did NI.

The momentum is shifting against independence

Wrong.

simply because you all keep trotting out these bu**sh*t memes. It would be so easy this day and age on social media to get the meme-buster articles trending, get them in the social media news, spread it around and discredit SNP MP's and indy supporters who propagate these memes.

You argument on the issues we're discussing is to cite meme's and propaganda ? What's the point of debating with you at all in that case ?

Instead of being honest about the cost of independence and the pro's and con's, they lie, why? Is it because the argument cannot overturn approximately 10% of the electorate? Is there in fact an argument at all? Do you not approach these issues honestly because they cannot be approached honestly whilst still maintaining a hope of winning such an argument?

People in Scotland trust the SNP more than any other party. It's as simple as that.

Nicola Sturgeon is now using her very own version of project fear, a complete u-turn from a position where she once derided such activities.

Something along the lines of:

"If Scotland leaves the single market it'll cost 80,000 jobs!",

So were Cameron, Osborne and a host of other politicians such as Ruth Davidson before the vote. Widen your blinkers a little. We don't all have collective amnesia since 24th June.

Whilst staying ominously quiet about the cost of leaving the UK single market. As I've said before - duplicitous. A divisive agenda with only one aim in mind.

Yes, to stay in the EU/Single Market by which ever means possible. She has cross party support in Scotland and 62% of the electorate behind her in doing so.

I'm sorely sorry that so many have bought into these lies, and sincerely hope that the No movement can gain enough traction to not only win again, but hammer into the Yes 45%. Kill the independence argument under the auspices of the SNP for good and relegate the SNP back to where they belong, holding on to their policies of division, false hope and lies.

Speaking as someone who lives and works here. It's a very unlikely prospect at the present time, and in the present set of political circumstances that have arisen since the Brexit vote.

If another independence party comes to the fore who want to talk honestly about it and can win the argument from a position of truth, all power to them and yourselves.

The deputy Scottish Labour leader is known for having independence type sympathies. He'll be wanting to wait till after the council elections next year though in order to challenge Dugdale for leadership if it's another total disaster for Scottish Labour. So there's a good chance that Scottish Labour might in fact do just that in the near future. Along with most of Scottish media ( apart from the BBC ).

SCOTTISH Labour’s deputy leader has given in principle backing to Nicola Sturgeon’s plan to secure sweeping new powers for Holyrood in a soft Brexit alternative to independence. Speaking in Dunfermline last night, Alex Rowley said it was too early for a second referendum, but quite right that more powers should be considered to secure Scotland’s best interests.

Referring to reports the UK government wants to secure EU single market access for the City of London, he said: “Just as the City of London has specific needs, so too does Scotland.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/News/14815330.Scottish_Labour_deputy_backs_more_powers_for_Holyrood_to_achieve_soft_Brexit/?ref=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ScottishNewsHeraldScotland+(Scottish+News+%7C+Herald+Scotland)

He's saying exactly the same as Sturgeon is truth be told.

Political scientist and polling expert Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University says that if, hypothetically, Scottish Labour ever decided to back full independence for Scotland, then Scotland would surely become independent and they would “potentially become the most powerful party in Scotland.”

So you might be right. :cool:

islandannie

This is quite laughable.

The SNP demand to be independent of the UK.

But consistently insist on a third runway at Heathrow because of the benefits it will bring to Scotland.
Do they understand that once independent they will not and quite rightly have any input at all.

Westminster will then make decisions on what will benefit the rest of the UK,Scotland and the effects of such decisions on Scotland will not be a consideration at all.

The SNP have make their minds up are we capable of being a more prosperous on our own or does what happens in London have no effect.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I've never disagreed with that. However, Scotland voted as a country to remain, as did NI.

Wrong. You argument on the issues we're discussing is to cite meme's and propaganda ? What's the point of debating with you at all in that case ?

People in Scotland trust the SNP more than any other party. It's as simple as that.

So were Cameron, Osborne and a host of other politicians such as Ruth Davidson before the vote. Widen your blinkers a little. We don't all have collective amnesia since 24th June.

Yes, to stay in the EU/Single Market by which ever means possible. She has cross party support in Scotland and 62% of the electorate behind her in doing so.

Speaking as someone who lives and works here. It's a very unlikely prospect at the present time, and in the present set of political circumstances that have arisen since the Brexit vote.

The deputy Scottish Labour leader is known for having independence type sympathies. He'll be wanting to wait till after the council elections next year though in order to challenge Dugdale for leadership if it's another total disaster for Scottish Labour. So there's a good chance that Scottish Labour might in fact do just that in the near future. Along with most of Scottish media ( apart from the BBC ).

http://www.heraldscotland.com/News/14815330.Scottish_Labour_deputy_backs_more_powers_for_Holyrood_to_achieve_soft_Brexit/?ref=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ScottishNewsHeraldScotland+(Scottish+News+%7C+Herald+Scotland)

He's saying exactly the same as Sturgeon is truth be told.

So you might be right. :cool:

Scotland didn't vote for anything, neither did Northern Ireland, England, Wales, Gibraltar, etc... they are simply reported as regional votes in the same way West Midlands and East Midlands constitute the larger 'Midlands'. The only result that occurred on the day was the UK result. It will never be a case of "England and Wales can leave, the rest do as we please", because there is no the rest, there is no England and there is no Wales, there is no Scotland or Northern Ireland in the context of a UK vote. Unless you have a specific axe to grind, then of course you're going to plug away at this for as long as you can.

I'm not wrong about the momentum at all.

If there is ever any for independence it's always short lived once the meme is debunked. And you go back to square one.

I think your faith in the SNP is mis-placed. The more bs memes that come out, the more SNP MP's who back these memes which are then debunked, the worse they look. You claim the people of Scotland trust the SNP, tell us all how many votes they got in the last Scottish parliament elections. Then tell us how many people are in the eligible vote in Scotland. Perhaps the little voyage of discovery that takes you on will open your blinkers a little to the savage reality of being in the minority supporting dishonest memes and falsehoods.

You now excuse Nicola's actions, using her own 'project fear'. You excuse them because it's convenient to do so now citing previous abusers of peoples fear as some form of vindication for doing so. I hope you know that's not how it works and that afterwards such actions will be remembered, just as you did in your previous post with Cameron, Osborne and Davidson. The shine is coming off isn't it?

The 62% were only in Scotland, a regional result of no consequence in a pan-UK vote. What of the voters in Scotland who backed Leave, are they not to be represented by Nicola? Where is the appetite for 'soft-independence' if compromise and mediation are now supposed to be the order of the day? It's all laughably two faced and ridiculous, more so when we delve into the grimy details of what SNP independence may actually look like.

If another party comes forward with honest aims and intentions for independence then it would be good for the people of Scotland, even if independence never came to pass, because the current brand of politics and grassroots support is toxic, deluded and just plain wrong about many things. I think deep down you know this to be true in the hammering you take on this forum. Only when independence makes sense from an honest point of view will enough people support it, and accept it, for it to take hold and succeed.

The foolish man builds his house upon the sand.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I'm not wrong about the momentum at all.

If there is ever any for independence it's always short lived once the meme is debunked. And you go back to square one..

Oh right...

That must be why the latest polls are showing a majority for staying in the EU....

Maybe we should have a 'Regrexit' referendum.

Now that the myth has been debunked and all.....;)