The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

kabayiri

mayonnaise wrote: »

That's correct.
And 51.9% of 72.2% is 37.5%

This is true.

In both rUK and Scotland the current UK PM or Scottish 1st minister can't claim that the 28% / 33% (respectively) offer any sort of mandate by simply not voting.

If anything... if these people wanted to remain in or leave the EU they knew their best chance of securing this was to vote!!

We are told that there is a new age of politics with the SNP in Scotland, but all I see is the same sleight of hand with statistical interpretations.

kabayiri

Shakethedisease wrote: »

...
Sturgeon would like a soft Brexit, if there is to be one. It makes things easier all round for everyone.
...

What?!

I thought she wanted an independence referendum for Scotland before the completion of Article 50?

Or was that last week's plan?

Why don't the SNP fund their own advisory referendum, to show just how "total" their support is.

Just make sure you word the question clearly. We can't have any confusing terms slipping in, like "UK" :rotfl:

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

You've forgotten how people voted the previous month in Scotland and what they mandated the SNP to do if a Brexit result was Scotland in/rUK out. Please remember we're talking about what Scottish voters want, not the SNP. You have a little bit of trouble keeping sight of the fact that a possible independence referendum was put on the SNP manifesto during the Holyrood election should this situation occur.

Oh no, I haven't. I just firmly believe that the EU referendum was manipulated by the SNP. I've posted the link to their website that states people should vote to Remain with independence in mind, that is duplicitous.

Here's a poll before the 2014 indy ref.

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/would-you-vote-yes-or-no-if-you-thought-the-uk-would-leave-the-eu-in-a-few-year

Doesn't seem to support any argument made that "Better Together told me lies!!!!", Scotland didn't care. They wanted to remain in the UK, and took the EU decision with the rest of the UK.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I'm afraid you are. It's been a solid 45% since the referendum, when it looked like Article 50 would be invoked straight after the vote, leapt up to well over 50%.. and has receeded slightly back over the following months as it looked like the Tories wouldn't actually go through with a hard Brexit. Article 50 is yet to be invoked and the Tories are looking like they're after a hard Brexit again.

No, I'm not.

"A solid 45%", translated from "indy" into English as "stagnant at 45%". There is no momentum, yet if Scotland truly wanted to leave the UK and rejoin/remain in the EU - there should be! Even without campaigning.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. Meme's ? The SNP got more votes than the other three parties put together. As for trust, please again take the below on board.

http://stv.tv/news/politics/1347185-scottish-government-most-trusted-government-in-europe/

How do we reconcile these two polls/surveys?

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/how-much-if-at-all-do-you-trust-the-following-to-tell-the-truth-snp

Regarding SNP/pro-indy meme busting:

https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/category/meme-busting/

Anyone wanting to discredit what gets churned out on social media by the SNP/pro-indy support just needs to look here. This gentleman does a fine job of fighting feelings with facts.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Where ? What shine ? You've yet to counter any point I've made about trust and what was said about job losses from politicians from ALL parties in the run up to Brexit. I was simply pointing out that to you.

I was talking about the two-faced nature of Nicola Sturgeon, complaining about project fear in 2014 in the indy ref, complaining about project fear v2.0 in the 2016 EU referendum and now, a mere 4 months later, using her own project fear after denouncing such tactics consistently and constantly.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

<

---

THIS is why many Scots now want independence. You've put it in a nutshell.

I think you mis-understand 1) What happened in 2014 and 2) What that meant in terms of the EU referendum vote in 2016.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

After the Scottish referendum were you thinking 'but what off all those voters who backed 'Yes' ?. Your sudden concern is heartwarming, but a majority is a majority. That's how the voting system works when it comes to referendums. Sturgeon would like a soft Brexit, if there is to be one. It makes things easier all round for everyone.

The hammering I take on this forum is because I've very much in the minority when presenting my perspectives. I visit a few others that are Scotland based. They are far more reflective of the current political concerns and issues and about 50/50 regarding independence. And whatever we discuss here, and however hard I get 'hammered'. It's the people on those other Scottish based discussion areas who will have their ultimate say at the ballot box. Not 95% of the posters on this one. I enjoy visiting and interacting on all of them, this one included.

The 2014 referendum, no, that was just Scots. That was your own affair.

The UK EU referendum in 2016 was everyone in the UK, the Scottish and Northern Irish leave voters have every right to be recognised as Scottish and Northern Irish remain voters in the wider context of the UK result. The Scottish and Northern Irish results taken in isolation should have no bearing on the result. As I pointed out recently in another post, we now have a situation where 5% of the electorate that turned out to vote is dictating to 52%.

Edit: The part in bold above, perhaps you ought to just take your own advice? UK referendum, UK majority for leave, what more is to be said?

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The hammering I take on this forum is because I've very much in the minority when presenting my perspectives.

A perspective based on relentless spin pumped out by the media machine that's driven by ideology. All we hear from the SNP is negative campaigning. There's no vision portrayed of what a future Scotland would be. Real action to transform the Scottish economy. Putting building blocks into place. In fact I'd say that the masters of the universe are clueless. As politicians these days are in general. Lacking the life skills and experience outside of the political arena.

Be difficult to persuade others to join the cause if there's no dream to buy into. As the years pass, interest will wane amongst the electorate and the opportunity will be gone for another long period of time.

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

What?!

I thought she wanted an independence referendum for Scotland before the completion of Article 50?

Or was that last week's plan?

Why don't the SNP fund their own advisory referendum, to show just how "total" their support is.

Just make sure you word the question clearly. We can't have any confusing terms slipping in, like "UK" :rotfl:

She would rather independence occur when both rUK and Scotland's economies are ticking over/status quo as now. Not when both are tanking and uncertain after a hard Brexit and the ramifications kick in. However, if pushed as in a hard Brexit scenario, independence referendum before rUK leaves. And it will be before rUK leaves.

I note now that the Conservatives are now talking of trying to delay a referendum rather than blocking one.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

She would rather independence occur when both rUK and Scotland's economies are ticking over/status quo as now. Not when both are tanking and uncertain after a hard Brexit and the ramifications kick in. However, if pushed as in a hard Brexit scenario, independence referendum before rUK leaves. And it will be before rUK leaves.

I note now that the Conservatives are now talking of trying to delay a referendum rather than blocking one.

It makes me laugh when you say things like "it will" like you or Nicola can tell Westminster how it's going to play out. The boot is most definitely on the other foot. It will be delayed until the result of negotiations are known. It's the only fair way to do it. By then it could well be that we're out, and Scotland will be right there alongside us as the people decided in 2014.

A majority is a majority after all.

Shakethedisease

Thrugelmir wrote: »

A perspective based on relentless spin pumped out by the media machine that's driven by ideology. All we hear from the SNP is negative campaigning. There's no vision portrayed of what a future Scotland would be. Real action to transform the Scottish economy. Putting building blocks into place. In fact I'd say that the masters of the universe are clueless. As politicians these days are in general. Lacking the life skills and experience outside of the political arena.

Be difficult to persuade others to join the cause if there's no dream to buy into. As the years pass, interest will wane amongst the electorate and the opportunity will be gone for another long period of time.

The SNP have very little media support in both Scotland and in the UK as a whole. There is no media machine pumping out anything. Support has to be built from the ground up, deeds and actions in government. Not via media headlines.

If was to take my own perspectives from the UK media, I'd be a raving Brexiteer and vote Tory. You hear all you hear about the SNP via the same prism of the same media machine that brought us a Leave win, wants to close UK borders, thinks Katie Hopkins is funny and wants to sack Gary Lineker because of a tweet he made. More fool you and others here if you think that any of them are telling you the honest gospel truth about anything the SNP represent.

Thankfully the first Scottish referendum woke a lot of us up media wise so we're a few years ahead of rUK.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The SNP have very little media support in both Scotland and in the UK as a whole. There is no media machine pumping out anything. Support has to be built from the ground up, deeds and actions in government. Not via media headlines.

If was to take my own perspectives from the UK media, I'd be a raving Brexiteer and vote Tory. You hear all you hear about the SNP via the same prism of the same media machine that brought us a Leave win, wants to close UK borders, thinks Katie Hopkins is funny and wants to sack Gary Lineker because of a tweet he made. More fool you and others here if you think that any of them are telling you the honest gospel truth about anything the SNP represent.

Thankfully the first Scottish referendum woke a lot of us up media wise so we're a few years ahead of rUK.

I wasn't on about the MSM, take a look at chokkablog and others quietly recording the crap the SNP put out to misinform voters. The screenshots and tweets are there for all to see.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

It makes me laugh when you say things like "it will" like you or Nicola can tell Westminster how it's going to play out. The boot is most definitely on the other foot. It will be delayed until the result of negotiations are known. It's the only fair way to do it. By then it could well be that we're out, and Scotland will be right there alongside us as the people decided in 2014.

A majority is a majority after all.

It won't be delayed from the Holyrood end in terms of waiting until the very end of negotiations and the results of them. When Sturgeon said 'dragged out against our will'. She really did mean it. So did those who voted for her and her party in May. England and Wales can leave if they wish.

The Scottish Govt will seek an article 30, and probably won't get it. Then will go ahead anyway even if it ultimately means dissolving the current Holyrood parliament and standing on an explicit independence manifesto. Osborne telling Scots they couldn't use the £ started independence support shooting up in the first referendum. May refusing a referendum altogether will send it sky high. The Tories know this. Davidson and Mundell certainly do.

The aim is to stay in the Single Market/EU. So everything logically regarding timing must be and has to be done before Scotland is taken out. There is no way around this from the Scottish Governments current position. So that's what they'll do and everything said so far is indicating this to be the case. You can quote me on it later if you like. Hard Brexit = indy ref before UK( inc Scotland) out of EU.

A softer Brexit such as the one both you and Sturgeon would like means there are other options still on the table.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It won't be delayed from the Holyrood end in terms of waiting until the very end of negotiations and the results of them. When Sturgeon said 'dragged out against our will'. She really did mean it. So did those who voted for her and her party in May. England and Wales can leave if they wish.

The Scottish Govt will seek an article 30, and probably won't get it. Then will go ahead anyway even if it ultimately means dissolving the current Holyrood parliament and standing on an explicit independence manifesto. Osborne telling Scots they couldn't use the £ started independence support shooting up in the first referendum. May refusing a referendum altogether will send it sky high. The Tories know this. Davidson and Mundell certainly do.

The aim is to stay in the Single Market/EU. So everything logically regarding timing must be and has to be done before Scotland is taken out. There is no way around this from the Scottish Governments current position. So that's what they'll do and everything said so far is indicating this to be the case. You can quote me on it later if you like. Hard Brexit = indy ref before UK( inc Scotland) out of EU.

A softer Brexit such as the one both you and Sturgeon would like means there are other options still on the table.

and why won't Nicola tell the voters of scotland what the plan is for currency, banking and government borrowing when iscotland occurs?

what an absolute shambles; probably cost her iscotland