The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

kabayiri

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

It makes me laugh when you say things like "it will" like you or Nicola can tell Westminster how it's going to play out. The boot is most definitely on the other foot. It will be delayed until the result of negotiations are known. It's the only fair way to do it. By then it could well be that we're out, and Scotland will be right there alongside us as the people decided in 2014.

A majority is a majority after all.

Shakey doesn't know; Sturgeon doesn't know; May doesn't know; the EU doesn't know; I don't know;.... you can see a pattern emerging here.

We go into the negotiations aiming high, and take it from there.

If the EU decide to play hardball there will be nothing Sturgeon can say or do to change matters. She won't have the influence she thinks she has.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I wasn't on about the MSM, take a look at chokkablog and others quietly recording the crap the SNP put out to misinform voters. The screenshots and tweets are there for all to see.

Kevin Hague is as biased to the Union as Wings over Scotland is to independence. I do read his blog on occasion, as I do Wings on occasion. I follow both on Twitter. His only real focus is on GERS unfortunately so he gets wheeled out once or twice a year. He has very little else of an interest to say from my own point of view on much wider Scottish politics. His own nasty tweets equating Wings over Scotland and readers with Nazi's not realising it was National Holocaust Remembrance Day will always go down as an absolute classic. :eek:

You'd do much better reading and following both sides of every story if you're at all interested in Scottish politics. But like you are unlikely to get a balanced view on Wings regarding independence, the same goes for Hague when it comes to the SNP am afraid. Both are hopelessly biased, but at least Wings is upfront about it.

ps I wasn't actually replying to your post regarding media machines. It was Thrugelmir

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It won't be delayed from the Holyrood end in terms of waiting until the very end of negotiations and the results of them. When Sturgeon said 'dragged out against our will'. She really did mean it. So did those who voted for her and her party in May. England and Wales can leave if they wish.

The Scottish Govt will seek an article 30, and probably won't get it. Then will go ahead anyway even if it ultimately means dissolving the current Holyrood parliament and standing on an explicit independence manifesto. Osborne telling Scots they couldn't use the £ started independence support shooting up in the first referendum. May refusing a referendum altogether will send it sky high. The Tories know this. Davidson and Mundell certainly do.

The aim is to stay in the Single Market/EU. So everything logically regarding timing must be and has to be done before Scotland is taken out. There is no way around this from the Scottish Governments current position. So that's what they'll do and everything said so far is indicating this to be the case. You can quote me on it later if you like. Hard Brexit = indy ref before UK( inc Scotland) out of EU.

A softer Brexit such as the one both you and Sturgeon would like means there are other options still on the table.

You want Scots to choose to leave the UK to remain in the single market to protect that status - before you even know if that status has been granted to the UK or not?

Can you not see the madness in that proposal?

The independence referendum, if there will even be one, will only take place once the outcome of negotiations between the EU and UK are concluded and ratified. Until that point the relationship between the UK and the EU will not be known, therefore the Scottish electorate will have no idea what they're voting on. Leave the UK and join the EU, or remain in the UK and... and what? Precisely.

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

Shakey doesn't know; Sturgeon doesn't know; May doesn't know; the EU doesn't know; I don't know;.... you can see a pattern emerging here.

We go into the negotiations aiming high, and take it from there

Exactly. But at least Sturgeon has said what she will do given a certain set of circumstances.

If the EU decide to play hardball there will be nothing Sturgeon can say or do to change matters. She won't have the influence she thinks she has.

Neither will May.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Kevin Hague is as biased to the Union as Wings over Scotland is to independence. I do read his blog on occasion, as I do Wings on occasion. I follow both on Twitter. His only real focus is on GERS unfortunately so he gets wheeled out once or twice a year. He has very little else of an interest to say from my own point of view on much wider Scottish politics. His own nasty tweets equating Wings over Scotland and readers with Nazi's not realising it was National Holocaust Remembrance Day will always go down as an absolute classic. :eek:

You'd do much better reading and following both sides of every story if you're at all interested in Scottish politics. But like you are unlikely to get a balanced view on Wings regarding independence, the same goes for Hague when it comes to the SNP am afraid. Both are hopelessly biased, but at least Wings is upfront about it.

ps I wasn't actually replying to your post regarding media machines. It was Thrugelmir

I only read chokkablog for the interesting pieces about the SNP and its social media presence.

I prefer Whytepaper. That's more me.

https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/

He eloquently debunks pretty much everything indy supporters say about the economy and general fact checking.

.string.

Do you remember the magic economic levers which the SNP say will solve all economic woes.

Well, the signs are there:

Proposed EU corporate tax reforms are "quite radical and frightening for Ireland

The EU, now with the UK exiting so no longer acting as a brake to ever closer union, will gradually absorb European Countries into itself, especially the little ones. into itself. "Independent Scotland" - you've got to be kidding. Mind you, I can see some opposition to this coming up, but the writing is on the wall. I use for this type if reason why I, as a fiercely pro remained, would not like to rejoin the EU without our acquired opt-outs which we have at present.

Goodbye Magic Levers.

It gives the UK a competitive edge however and a bit more at the negotiation table.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Exactly. But at least Sturgeon has said what she will do given a certain set of circumstances.

Neither will May.

Saying May won't have influence at the EU table doesn't enhance your position or that of Nicola's.

Deflector shields at full are they?

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You want Scots to choose to leave the UK to remain in the single market to protect that status - before you even know if that status has been granted to the UK or not?

Can you not see the madness in that proposal?

The independence referendum, if there will even be one, will only take place once the outcome of negotiations between the EU and UK are concluded and ratified. Until that point the relationship between the UK and the EU will not be known, therefore the Scottish electorate will have no idea what they're voting on. Leave the UK and join the EU, or remain in the UK and... and what? Precisely.

By the end of the year ( announced today ) the Scottish Govt will set out proposals and put them to the Uk Govt outlining ways Scotland can stay in the single market among other things, even if rUK leaves. It's up to the UK government to say Yes or No to those first, nothing to do with the EU.

May will have three months after those are presented to her before she presses the Article 50 button according to her own timeframe. But the Scottish Govt will know one way or the other if their proposals are going to be dismissed before Article 50 is even invoked.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Saying May won't have influence at the EU table doesn't enhance your position or that of Nicola's.

Deflector shields at full are they?

See above. Sturgeon is going to put May on the spot regarding Scotland well before negotiations even start.

kabayiri

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Exactly. But at least Sturgeon has said what she will do given a certain set of circumstances.

Neither will May.

Just so I understand you clearly.

You are saying if that during these negotiations those outside get wind of things not going so well, that you expect Sturgeon to see this as a mandate to trigger an instant referendum?

Whilst this Scottish referendum takes place, what should the UK and EU negotiators do? Halt? Proceed as normal?

What if certain European states see this internal conflict as an opportunity to push their own Brexit agenda?

I can well imagine the Brexit process being tricky, but what you envisage makes it a darn sight more complicated.