The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

islandannie

.string. wrote: »

You would have lots of levers to play with

Ahh but would Tsarina Nicola the 1st have the strength to pull them?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I disagree. All this SNP talking left and acting right stuff is nonsense..

Och away Shakey - the SNP are masters of New Labour style political triangulation - there's a reason they're known as the 'Tartan Tories' in large parts of the country and hold significant numbers of seats in conservative (with a small c) leaning rural areas while also being able to attract support in the socialist heartlands of Glasgow and Dundee.

Now don't get me wrong - I applaud their skill in pulling that off.

But to deny that they act right while talking left is just nonsense.

Tromking

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Och away Shakey - the SNP are masters of New Labour style political triangulation - there's a reason they're known as the 'Tartan Tories' in large parts of the country and hold significant numbers of seats in conservative (with a small c) leaning rural areas while also being able to attract support in the socialist heartlands of Glasgow and Dundee.

Now don't get me wrong - I applaud their skill in pulling that off.

But to deny that they act right while talking left is just nonsense.

Central Belter Shakey is a 'Johnny-come-lately' to the SNP cause, hers is the traditional central belters dislike of the English Tories rather than antipathy toward the English or the Union per se. I flagged up months ago that the Tories would increasingly become the party of choice for the beleaguered Unionist and Shakey and others couldn't see it. Now I see they're saying that the Tories will never become the biggest party at Holyrood, only a short time after saying it would be impossible for them to be the official opposition. Scotland has never been more Nationalist, it's also never been more Unionist.

CLAPTON

zagubov wrote: »

I sometimes wonder when reading this forum whether some posters have ever encountered anybody ever at all who didn't strike them as a racist

racism

noun
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
"theories of racism"
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
"a programme to combat racism"
synonyms: racial discrimination, racialism, racial prejudice/bigotry, xenophobia, chauvinism, bigotry, bias, intolerance; More

and

The Tories are extremely tight so I would have thought they would appeal to Scottish voters.

one could argue that the Scots aren't a 'race' but are only form a 'country' but that's another debate

but as toxic toastie hates everyone except rich idle IRA loving trotskyite bigots by bother?

Shakethedisease

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Och away Shakey - the SNP are masters of New Labour style political triangulation - there's a reason they're known as the 'Tartan Tories' in large parts of the country and hold significant numbers of seats in conservative (with a small c) leaning rural areas while also being able to attract support in the socialist heartlands of Glasgow and Dundee.

Now don't get me wrong - I applaud their skill in pulling that off.

But to deny that they act right while talking left is just nonsense.

The reason they were known as Tartan Tories was 1979. Nothing whatsoever to do with recent years. And I'd hardly call being anti-Trident, abolishing the Bedroom tax, Free school meals up to Primary 3, getting rid of Right to Buy, free tuition fees, prescription charges etc etc as 'acting right'. Would you ?

I for one am looking forward to Ruth Davidson's announcement on bringing back tuition fees and endorsing welfare sanctions. Sure fire vote winning policies in Scotland.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

Central Belter Shakey is a 'Johnny-come-lately' to the SNP cause, hers is the traditional central belters dislike of the English Tories rather than antipathy toward the English or the Union per se. I flagged up months ago that the Tories would increasingly become the party of choice for the beleaguered Unionist and Shakey and others couldn't see it. Now I see they're saying that the Tories will never become the biggest party at Holyrood, only a short time after saying it would be impossible for them to be the official opposition. Scotland has never been more Nationalist, it's also never been more Unionist.

Johnny come lately ? I've been here for a while now, and in fact most SNP or indy advocates are johnny come lately's. It doesn't matter.

You're right though. Scottish Labour are currently irrelevant and in the next few years the politics is indeed going to be fought primarily between an SNP/Independence and Unionist prism. It's just that 22% isn't enough for the Conservatives to swing things their way.

And as pointed out to Hamish, look at every single poll past the headline figures and see where the demographics are, even for the last independence poll. The SNP is a young party, as is independence support. There will be a brief period of unionists concentrating round the Conservatives should Labour in Scotland remain as they are. Which will slowly fall away over time.

YouGov poll a few days ago

Yes 52% No 48% (under 65s) Yes 25% No 75% (over 65s)

However, there's a good chance that Dugdale is on the way out, and any new Scottish Labour leader after her, who spends a bit of time opposing the Tories as well as the SNP, will gain very much in media support in attacks against Davidson her MSP's and her party down south. None of which happens now. Likely candidates to succeed Dugdale are old style Corbyn supporters who hate the Conservatives just as much as the SNP. And the deputy leader is a firm advocate of Scottish Home Rule.

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

You're right though. Scottish Labour are currently irrelevant and in the next few years the politics is indeed going to be fought primarily between an SNP/Independence and Unionist prism. It's just that 22% isn't enough for the Conservatives to swing things their way.

And as pointed out to Hamish, look at every single poll past the headline figures and see where the demographics are, even for the last independence poll. The SNP is a young party, as is independence support. There will be a brief period of unionists concentrating round the Conservatives should Labour in Scotland remain as they are. Which will slowly fall away over time.

You're assuming that the 22% is an immovable number of course. The more Nicola and the SNP begin to grate with Scots (and they are apparently) the more Unionists will want to give them a kicking in the ballot box and be willing to lend their vote to the Tories. What price in the near future Tory local and national gains in primarily protestant parts of the central belt?
The demographics are not as clear cut as you would have us a believe. Conservative thinking current over 65`s will be replaced by an even bigger group of over 65`s in the near future, its too easy to say that their attitudes will not change toward independence when they like today`s over 65`s are on pensions and fixed incomes that rely on the pooling and sharing of resources with the rUK.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Johnny come lately ? I've been here for a while now, and in fact most SNP or indy advocates are johnny come lately's. It doesn't matter.

You're right though. Scottish Labour are currently irrelevant and in the next few years the politics is indeed going to be fought primarily between an SNP/Independence and Unionist prism. It's just that 22% isn't enough for the Conservatives to swing things their way.

And as pointed out to Hamish, look at every single poll past the headline figures and see where the demographics are, even for the last independence poll. The SNP is a young party, as is independence support. There will be a brief period of unionists concentrating round the Conservatives should Labour in Scotland remain as they are. Which will slowly fall away over time.

YouGov poll a few days agoHowever, there's a good chance that Dugdale is on the way out, and any new Scottish Labour leader after her, who spends a bit of time opposing the Tories as well as the SNP, will gain very much in media support in attacks against Davidson her MSP's and her party down south. None of which happens now. Likely candidates to succeed Dugdale are old style Corbyn supporters who hate the Conservatives just as much as the SNP. And the deputy leader is a firm advocate of Scottish Home Rule.

Quoting demographics as a reason why 'it's only a matter of time' it clutching at straws.

There will be plenty of Scottish people who were also young once, who voted along socialist lines, who grew up, got a job, a family, pay taxes and probably don't want their wealth taken away from them and re-distributed. It's a similar story the world over.

Those who have little (the young and poor) tend to vote along the lines of wealth re-distribution (socialism). The poor usually remain poor (argument for another time), some of the young grow up to eventually hold assets and liabilities and change their voting patterns to suit their circumstances.

You cannot seriously think that the Scottish Conservative party membership will die off when everyone over the age of 55 at present eventually kicks the bucket? You cannot also believe that people will hold the same political views for their entire lives either?

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

You're assuming that the 22% is an immovable number of course. The more Nicola and the SNP begin to grate with Scots (and they are apparently) the more Unionists will want to give them a kicking in the ballot box and be willing to lend their vote to the Tories. What price in the near future Tory local and national gains in primarily protestant parts of the central belt?
The demographics are not as clear cut as you would have us a believe. Conservative thinking current over 65`s will be replaced by an even bigger group of over 65`s in the near future, its too easy to say that their attitudes will not change toward independence when they like today`s over 65`s are on pensions and fixed incomes that rely on the pooling and sharing of resources with the rUK.

Well we can argue till the cows come home on just how conservative older voters get via the passage of time. But there was a Holyrood election in May where the full weight of Conservative votes amounted to.... 22%.

Scottish Labour are in just as much of a fankle as their UK counterparts are, with added independence and devo max added into the mix. Their voters and officials now range from those supporting full independence, on the fence between independence and full federalisation and stalwart unionists like Dugdale and Ballie.

It's Scottish Labour and where their voters and policies go in the very near future that's worth the watching right now, not the Tories in 10 years or so's time.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Quoting demographics as a reason why 'it's only a matter of time' it clutching at straws.

There will be plenty of Scottish people who were also young once, who voted along socialist lines, who grew up, got a job, a family, pay taxes and probably don't want their wealth taken away from them and re-distributed. It's a similar story the world over.

Those who have little (the young and poor) tend to vote along the lines of wealth re-distribution (socialism). The poor usually remain poor (argument for another time), some of the young grow up to eventually hold assets and liabilities and change their voting patterns to suit their circumstances.

You cannot seriously think that the Scottish Conservative party membership will die off when everyone over the age of 55 at present eventually kicks the bucket? You cannot also believe that people will hold the same political views for their entire lives either?

There will always be Tories. However, it's clear now there will be an independence referendum coming up before the next Holyrood GE. So I guess it will remain to be seen whether they're Scottish Tories in a Westminster sense, or purely in a Holyrood role.

Time for a revival in Scotland isn't something they have on their side at the moment. Unionism only lasts as long as the threat to the union does. What will Ruth do afterwards, whatever the result ?