The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Scotland didn't voluntarily become part of UK any more than Poland voluntarily became part of the Soviet Union.

They were subsumed.

Have you fact checked that?

You might want to.

CLAPTON

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Scotland didn't voluntarily become part of UK any more than Poland voluntarily became part of the Soviet Union.

They were subsumed.

This is all beside the point anyway. A large number of Scots feel exactly the same about the heartless neoliberal Tory dominated venality of the UK as a lot of English and Welsh people do.

They don't like it, recognise it, or want to live under it anymore.

Scotland can at least make a case to leave due to their history and geography. In England the left is having to struggle with gerrymandered constituencies, a first past the post system that enormously favours the Right, and a press that is almost completely controlled by xenophobic Tories and their backers.

And they still aren't quelling the surge of rebellion.

Rather than moaning endlessly that no one wants to play with you anymore its up to you Tory people to justify why we should continue to recognise your governance. A governance of which we are fundamentally sick.

There is only one justification for the people of scotland forming a sovereign nation and that is based on the democratic wish of the people.

There is no place in the 21st century for making a case based on their history although in practice the racism does increase support for breaking from their neighbour.

CLAPTON

beecher2 wrote: »

Your trolling is becoming a little desperate these days, don't you think?

you are free to justify the logic of what a 'non sovereign country' means and why that differentiates you from me:

ruggedtoast

CLAPTON wrote: »

There is only one justification for the people of scotland forming a sovereign nation and that is based on the democratic wish of the people.

There is no place in the 21st century for making a case based on their history although in practice the racism does increase support for breaking from their neighbour.

Yes it does. Which might be why Scots, who are in the main equitable and socially democratic, are tired of being portrayed as ranting nationalist fanatics by right wing English people for committing the crime of being fed up of having no say against the rightwards lurch of the United Kingdom.

Thats also incidentally, why many completely normal men and women are turning to the Left, as they are so tired of bigoted inward looking right wing exploitation being dressed up us centrist politics.

People you also continually dismiss as communists, incidentally.

CLAPTON

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Yes it does. Which might be why Scots, who are in the main equitable and socially democratic, are tired of being portrayed as ranting nationalist fanatics by right wing English people for committing the crime of being fed up of having no say against the rightwards lurch of the United Kingdom.

Thats also incidentally, why many completely normal men and women are turning to the Left, as they are so tired of bigoted inward looking right wing exploitation being dressed up us centrist politics.

People you also continually dismiss as communists, incidentally.

I support the democratic path to iscotland rather than some mad historical narrative; you just hate the tories and the 5th column hiding in the labour party

elantan

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

So Scottish people are by definition better than their UK counterparts in your eyes?

Better people because they do things quicker, better and in a more determined manner. Right?

ha ha ha ha i knew you would say that so predictable, no Scottish people are not better than anyone else, but I have noticed that when people are in a corner they tend to come out with plans and schemes to take them to where they want to be compared to people that are not in corners...

elantan

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Give the UK one more chance. Unite behind Corbynism, kick out the Tories and build a truly socially democratic Republican Britain based on equality and merit, not grace and favour forelock tugging of the serfs to the landed aristos and their awful politicians.

you know a lot of yes people wanted Corbyn in, then he did that carry on last week, lying to the Scottish labour, he lost so much support over that, personally speaking I aint a fan of Corbyn, i respect others right to want him and I think the rUK sorely need someone like him to help get it back on it's feet, but his opinion of Scotland and the people of Scotland is now well known so I dont think he will garner much support here.

Best let us get on with it whilst wishing the rUK all the best

elantan

May has said she won't allow any back door attempts to stay in the EU ... interesting

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

ha ha ha ha i knew you would say that so predictable, no Scottish people are not better than anyone else, but I have noticed that when people are in a corner they tend to come out with plans and schemes to take them to where they want to be compared to people that are not in corners...

Well of course I'm going to say that because it's incomprehensible that you would suggest such a thing. I'm glad I didn't disappoint.

If you don't think that, why did you say it?

I don't want to turn the thread into farce with comments about who is better than who, I actually wanted to know why you wanted an independent Scotland. It seems not because you can increase your living standards or improve your economy but because you just want Scotland to be independent whatever the consequence.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I've not said you're too poor to manage yourselves.

Managing yourselves is mutually exclusive from the standard of living. Sierra Leone manages itself, but that doesn't automatically mean a higher standard of living for its inhabitants.

I wanted to take this to its base level. Since you were campaigning to leave the UK when the UK was a member of the EU you both obviously believe Scotland will be richer and better off outside of the UK and probably believe also outside the EU. I want to know why that is and how that happens.

Claiming business will move north just because of Brexit isn't credible to me either. For example if you have a business in Scotland where the vast majority of it's custom is in rUK (which is likely since 64% of trade is done with rUK) then the business will have a stark decision to make. Move south and side with the larger portion of its trade or stay where it is and take the hit.

I'm not so sure, have a read of this portion of a discussion I was reading today. There are some interesting breakdowns there to digest in respect of Ireland.

Why would being independent reduce our trade with the UK?

It's nonsense.
Irelands two biggest trading parters are the US and the UK. Who they don't share a currency with.
And their current deficit to GDP ratio is almost half of the UKs. Seems to be a complete non issue for them.
More details from wikipedia, re their main exports/imports partners:
Exports

• United States 22.2%
• United Kingdom 15.1%
• Belgium 13.2%
• Germany 6.6%
• Switzerland 5.9%
• France 5.2%
• Netherlands 3.8%
• Spain 2.8% (2014)

Imports

• United Kingdom 32.2%
• United States 10.8%
• Germany 7.9%
• China 6.5%
• Netherlands 4.9%
• France 4.7%
• Japan 3.2%
• Switzerland 2.3%

Note: Ireland exports 15.1% to UK and imports 32.2% - Scotland exports 64% to the rUK!! A massive difference!

You seem to have missed out all the other non Euro countries from that list other than the UK and the US that Ireland imports and exports to/from:

• Irelands exports to non Euro: 43%
• Irelands imports from non Euro: 55%

And if Scotland was independent, things would be different to how they are now including who we might end up doing business with.
So, just to reiterate and make it clear where I am coming from and why I think the currency issue is a nonsense:

1. Ireland shows that a non shared currency isn't a barrier to a better deficit to GDP ratio (just like Irelands is almost half of the UKs) despite half of the value of its imports/exports being done with countries who use a different currency
2. Things that are true now for a Scotland in the UK, may not be true for an independent Scotland. In fact we can say for certain they won't be.

I actually had a look at all of Irelands exports and imports since the wikipedia page I copied and pasted from only contained the top 10 or so of their import and export partners. I downloaded a fuller set of data, and wrote a quick script to parse it. I could only find 2014 data (if you or anyone else can find newer I'll update with the newest results. Obviously 2014 data isn't up to date, but at the same time, I'm sure its not a million miles away from the current situation). Also please look at the code (anyone who codes) to see if there's anything amiss.
And the results are:

• Irelands Non Euro export percentage: 63.74 %
• Irelands Non Euro import percentage: 74.48 %

So in fact if Scotland changed nothing on becoming independent, Ireland are in the same or worse position that Scotland would be in, in respect to trading partners since the vast majority of their trade is with countries who use a different currency.
And yet at the same time Ireland's deficit to GDP ratio is approximately half of the UKs and approximately 4 times as good as Scotlands is at the moment. So, its fair to say that Scotland trading with rUK at 64% (again assuming nothing would change) using a different currency isn't necessarily a problem.