The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

CLAPTON

elantan wrote: »

No the onus is on the unionists to prove staying is the best bet... what's the point in staying ? You've had our economy now for over 300 years and we're 15Bn in the red so you keep telling us, you keep telling us how much we need you and yet staying as part of a union is not serving us well... I see people going to food banks, I've worked in soup kitchens where people are starving due to tory austerity.

I see the nhs in Scotland doing mich better than the nhs down south I see our kids getting a better education than down south ... these are the ferry things we can control and we do a much better job at it than when WM is in charge


So really the onus is to prove why should we stay ? What's so wonderful about the union that we should stay ??? What is worth sacrificing being independent for? Making our own way in the world

get more to spend per head than the English

its true that your NHS is the envy of the world and that this shows in the better health outcomes in scotland than england.

I believe your case for iscotland, pity you can't convince the scots

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

No the onus is on the unionists to prove staying is the best bet... what's the point in staying ? You've had our economy now for over 300 years and we're 15Bn in the red so you keep telling us, you keep telling us how much we need you and yet staying as part of a union is not serving us well... I see people going to food banks, I've worked in soup kitchens where people are starving due to tory austerity.

I see the nhs in Scotland doing mich better than the nhs down south I see our kids getting a better education than down south ... these are the ferry things we can control and we do a much better job at it than when WM is in charge


So really the onus is to prove why should we stay ? What's so wonderful about the union that we should stay ??? What is worth sacrificing being independent for? Making our own way in the world

So none of that is to do with Scotland getting more £ per capita?

It's just down to good management is it?

If you left the UK you wouldn't be getting more £ per capita, you'd need to cut your cloth accordingly.

So again lets hear why you think voting to be poorer is the best way forward, what is it about getting money for these NHS and educational projects from the rest of the UK that makes you want to leave?

Should you leave you won't be subsidised, you'll need to stand on your own two feet. If you join the EU in a climate where the rUK gets a bad deal with the EU you will not be able to afford those things with the removal of Barnett and the removal of a portion of trade with rUK, and probably jobs and business will cross south too, Scotland is after all only 5 million people at most.

So what's the overriding reason? I'm dying to hear it, please put me out of my misery.

The onus is very much on nationalists, very very much so. You are advocating change, people need to know why and how.

elantan

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

So none of that is to do with Scotland getting more £ per capita?

It's just down to good management is it?

If you left the UK you wouldn't be getting more £ per capita, you'd need to cut your cloth accordingly.

So again lets hear why you think voting to be poorer is the best way forward, what is it about getting money for these NHS and educational projects from the rest of the UK that makes you want to leave?

Should you leave you won't be subsidised, you'll need to stand on your own two feet. If you join the EU in a climate where the rUK gets a bad deal with the EU you will not be able to afford those things with the removal of Barnett and the removal of a portion of trade with rUK, and probably jobs and business will cross south too, Scotland is after all only 5 million people at most.

So what's the overriding reason? I'm dying to hear it, please put me out of my misery.

The onus is very much on nationalists, very very much so. You are advocating change, people need to know why and how.

ahhh all you can come back with is ... without us your nothing rubbish ... not really making me want to stay with that mince, and i imagine there are others that will feel the same way.

So go on one more shot ... why should we stay? whats so great about this union that should make me want to stay

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

ahhh all you can come back with is ... without us your nothing rubbish ... not really making me want to stay with that mince, and i imagine there are others that will feel the same way.

So go on one more shot ... why should we stay? whats so great about this union that should make me want to stay

No no, I've not come back with "without us you're rubbish" at all.

The very reason you have better NHS and Educational services is because there's more money per person sloshing around in Scotland. This money also serves to pay for the services provided to the sparse population, since Scotland's population density is lower than that of the rUK.

It's not feelings or anti-Scottish sentiment, it's just logic and facts.

I asked you, as the onus is on the nationalists to prove their point. So far you've said because your NHS is better and your education is better, which is linked to the higher per capita spend by being in the Union, ironically you've given me two reasons why you should stay.

Please give me solid sound reasons why you should leave that will not make you poorer and will not lower the standard of living for the people of Scotland. That's all I'm asking for. What convinced you in particular to be a nationalist? There must be a reason?!

elantan

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

No no, I've not come back with "without us you're rubbish" at all.

The very reason you have better NHS and Educational services is because there's more money per person sloshing around in Scotland. This money also serves to pay for the services provided to the sparse population, since Scotland's population density is lower than that of the rUK.

It's not feelings or anti-Scottish sentiment, it's just logic and facts.

I asked you, as the onus is on the nationalists to prove their point. So far you've said because your NHS is better and your education is better, which is linked to the higher per capita spend by being in the Union, ironically you've given me two reasons why you should stay.

Please give me solid sound reasons why you should leave that will not make you poorer and will not lower the standard of living for the people of Scotland. That's all I'm asking for. What convinced you in particular to be a nationalist? There must be a reason?!

see there you go again, too poor without the help of WM ... why not add in too wee and too stupid as well ... that's normally the way it goes. ive noticed you seem to be all about the money though so maybe you wont.

if we are such a drain on the rest of the UK i do have to wonder why you are fighting so hard to keep us.

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

see there you go again, too poor without the help of WM ... why not add in too wee and too stupid as well ... that's normally the way it goes. ive noticed you seem to be all about the money though so maybe you wont.

if we are such a drain on the rest of the UK i do have to wonder why you are fighting so hard to keep us.

I haven't said any of these things.

I'm not attacking you personally, I just would like to know why you became a nationalist, why you think Scotland would be richer and better off outside of the Union?

So far the two examples you've given are clearly linked to the Barnett formula and the status quo with regards to your currency, borrowing power, etc..

There has to be a reason why you feel Scotland will be richer and better off, why you feel it's better that Scotland should be outside of the Union, even regardless of EU membership. I just want to know what that reason, or reasons, might be.

elantan

I think ALL countries are best to run their own affairs, they are the ones that have to live with the decisions they make, i'm not Scotland specific i do however currently live in Scotland so I want Scotland to be independent

Sorry I am getting confused here , are you now saying Scotland isnt subsidised? because if so then maybe you dont think we are too poor after all, as to say we are subsidised is to say we are too poor to manage on our own.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Should you leave you won't be subsidised, you'll need to stand on your own two feet. If you join the EU in a climate where the rUK gets a bad deal with the EU you will not be able to afford those things with the removal of Barnett and the removal of a portion of trade with rUK, and probably jobs and business will cross south too, Scotland is after all only 5 million people at most.

I should think with Brexit the opposite is far more likely to be true regarding businesses moving. South to North.

Countries of 5 million seem to do rather well in world standings. Certainly no one is saying any of them are too poor to run themselves and that they should let a much larger neighbour run the show.

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

I think ALL countries are best to run their own affairs, they are the ones that have to live with the decisions they make, i'm not Scotland specific i do however currently live in Scotland so I want Scotland to be independent

Sorry I am getting confused here , are you now saying Scotland isnt subsidised? because if so then maybe you dont think we are too poor after all, as to say we are subsidised is to say we are too poor to manage on our own.

The Barnett formula is a subsidy. That doesn't mean you're too poor to manage on your own at all. I've never said you're too poor to manage on your own, you brought that up. Managing on your own is different to sustaining the level to which you've become accustomed.

What I said was what makes you think an independent Scotland will be richer and better off outside the Union?

According to your first paragraph you think Scotland should be independent just because you think all countries should be independent, ignoring that your country is actually Great Britain since the act of Union. But anyway...

That doesn't show that Scottish people will be richer and better off does it?

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I should think with Brexit the opposite is far more likely to be true regarding businesses moving. South to North.

Countries of 5 million seem to do rather well in world standings. Certainly no one is saying any of them are too poor to run themselves and that they should let a much larger neighbour run the show.

I've not said you're too poor to manage yourselves.

Managing yourselves is mutually exclusive from the standard of living. Sierra Leone manages itself, but that doesn't automatically mean a higher standard of living for its inhabitants.

I wanted to take this to its base level. Since you were campaigning to leave the UK when the UK was a member of the EU you both obviously believe Scotland will be richer and better off outside of the UK and probably believe also outside the EU. I want to know why that is and how that happens.

Claiming business will move north just because of Brexit isn't credible to me either. For example if you have a business in Scotland where the vast majority of it's custom is in rUK (which is likely since 64% of trade is done with rUK) then the business will have a stark decision to make. Move south and side with the larger portion of its trade or stay where it is and take the hit.