The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

ash28

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Loads of times. You've said that in Sept 2014 everyone KNEW there was an EU referendum coming up. They didn't. Not even Ruth Davidson did.

I would have thought most people might have had an idea that one would be forthcoming as it was announced in early 2013 along with a promise from Cameron that a referendum would be held by early 2017 at the latest - if the Conservative won the 2015 election.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jan/23/david-cameron-eu-speech-referendum

And when we have negotiated that new settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in or out choice. To stay in the EU on these new terms, or come out altogether.
It will be an in-out referendum.
Legislation will be drafted before the next election. And if a Conservative government is elected we will introduce the enabling legislation immediately and pass it by the end of that year. And we will complete this negotiation and hold this referendum within the first half of the next parliament.

It received enough coverage at the time.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

That's why all options are being considered. Including whether it would be possible for Scotland/NI and Gibraltar to remain within the EU, while England and Wales leave.

I suspect Sturgeon and her new cross party and independent panel of EU experts ( who met for the first time last week ) will present some sort of option covering the above. But will of course be laughed out of town.

Sadly,( but not that sadly ) she will then have to go back to Scotland and say she tried, but the only real option left is to hold a referendum on leaving the UK in order to proper represent the 62% of Scots voters she and the Scottish Govt have a duty to represent.
Scottish Labour and the Lib Dems then will have to leap one way or the other. Eu nationals who voted No the last time to ensure EU membership will vote Yes, and then there's all the 16/17 year olds, people like Hamish, and a fair swathe of Labour voters who voted No last time... thinking Labour and Miliband would be in power.

But this all still depends on future events, and just how far Theresa May is willing to go to ensure good trade deals v's p*****g off those who won't countenance free movement.

There's still hope that a deal can be done whereby Scotland stays in both the UK and the EU. But for every sneery 'Blow to Sturgeon' headline advocating that the UK will be taken out of the EU in full. They might want to catch on soon that they're only serving to shoot Scottish Labour and the Lib dems foxes ( who want both unions ), not the SNP's, who are only really that keen on one of them.

The answer you're looking for is. Austerity max.

When 64% of Scottish trade is with the UK and will be subject to tariffs.

And 15% of Scottish trade is done with the EU, so I read although I'm yet to confirm that.

"Vote 'Yes' in 2017 for independence and destitution!", hardly the best strapline is it. But at least you'll be able to holiday in the EU without the need for a visa, if you can afford it.

But hey, you'll be Scottish and not British, silver linings and all that.

Tromking

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The answer you're looking for is. Austerity max.

When 64% of Scottish trade is with the UK and will be subject to tariffs.

The SNP I notice are always keen to say that the break up of the Union will mean that Scotland will still enjoy friendly relations with the rUK. I really can't see that being the case for a number of years.
Scotland and its goods will become an anathema especially to the English, who will rightly or wrongly want to exact some financial revenge on the ungrateful and duplicitous Scots . I can see the newspaper and social media campaigns imploring Brits to stop supporting Scottish businesses now.
The 'subsidy' umbilical is designed to keep the Scots tied to the Union, if the Scots go it alone, they should expect a less supine and a more overtly aggressive rUK going forward. A sub 15% rate of corporation tax would probably wipe most Scottish businesses out. Beware the English 'Tiger'!

TrickyTree83

Tromking wrote: »

The SNP I notice are always keen to say that the break up of the Union will mean that Scotland will still enjoy friendly relations with the rUK. I really can't see that being the case for a number of years.
Scotland and its goods will become an anathema especially to the English, who will rightly or wrongly want to exact some financial revenge on the ungrateful and duplicitous Scots . I can see the newspaper and social media campaigns imploring Brits to stop supporting Scottish businesses now.
The 'subsidy' umbilical is designed to keep the Scots tied to the Union, if the Scots go it alone, they should expect a less supine and a more overtly aggressive rUK going forward. A sub 15% rate of corporation tax would probably wipe most Scottish businesses out. Beware the English 'Tiger'!

Although possible, I wouldn't wish that upon them under any scenario. If they do remain/re-join the EU they will be hamstrung by EU trade regulations, whether we tried to help them by trying to buy Scottish or not.

The ignorance on the economic impact is absolutely astounding.

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

.string. wrote:

Oh you said it all right, It was prior to the once-in-a-lifetime referendum. The content was related to the current SNP-touted fantasy of Natland getting a seamless entry into the EU.

But I don't blame for not wanting to troll back over your old posts,

Regarding your last para, Again in your ranting and raving remark you assume a seamless EU membership. However that's not realistic and instead were Scotland to separate they would emerge outside both the EU and outside the UK and would know full well that Scotland would only be able to join the EU after their economy was in good shape (after xxyears) and then be obligated to join the EURO zone (*).

Calm down string. Personal attacks aren't going to get anyone anywhere.
Personal attacks?! - "Rant and Rave"? those were your words I was referencing.
Don't remember saying anything of the sort.
Well I do.
I DO remember however, going through pages and pages of debate with you on EU membership during 2014. Arguing that the EU would accept Scotland no problem if independence was voted for.
Oh yes I and several others did say that Scotland would be able to join as an independent country, but there was always the qualifying context that joining would be eventual, not the seamless or even quick membership that was, and still is, the SNP claim.
I still believe the same but we'll never know now what would have happened.
If Scotland were to separate, yes you would find out.
Things are very different now because England and Wales want to leave. People like you are still stuck running the same old, same old 2014 'Spain will veto' spiel. still true, as are the other objections

.string. wrote:

Had the UK been in the Euro Zone when we had the referendum it would have had a different EU (and not in my opinion attractive for the UK) and not in Scotland's interests, to leave either whether the UK is in the EU or not.

But we had a privileged place in the EU, and I have been in favour of remaining in both. I want the best for my country, each part of it.

(*) yes I know it is at first "just" a commitment and not necessarily immediate. Maybe SNP's attitude to commitments is something you can cling to.

You've lost me.

Yes I as a bit obscure, so sorry for that. I'll put it another way, The EU that we were/are in now, is in my view attractive for us compared with what a new member would face which would be Scotland's situation. At the moment we have a rebate and a number of opt-outs, for example no Schengen and no membership to the Eurozone. Had we remained we would also have had other advantages, for example underwriting of opt out from the "ever closer union", admission that competences could be sent back to member states, protection against interference from decisions made by the Euro zone and probably some flexibility on immigration as others felt the pinch as it became their turn to have massive influxes of migrants. All that is history, or about to be. Scotland will get none of that, repeat none of that, so whereas I thought that remaining would have been good for us all, joining afresh is a different kettle of fish

Response as above in Bold Blue

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I didn't say they knew there was an EU referendum. No one did.

I'm pretty sure I said that it was announced at a Conservative party conference prior to the 2014 indy vote. So they had foreknowledge of the possibility of an EU referendum, if they bothered to look.

We all looked. However, the conversation went something like this on here, and elsewhere including the media.

Poster 1 :- 'Scotland will be out of the EU if you vote yes.

Me : "But there is a possibility that Scotland might be out of the EU anyway if Cameron calls an EU referendum.

Poster 2 :- "LOL, never happen. Scotland will be out of the EU if you vote Yes."

Me :- "But you can't deny the possibility is there"

All Posters :- Hahahahahahahaha no it isn't. You're deluded.

And so it went on. Ruth Davidson being one of the main proponents of the above argument. She actually went as far as saying that she didn't expect a majority Tory govt.

For the last time, Scotland voted No in part because it was assumed that EU membership would be safer in the UK that outwith it. It was one of the cornerstones of the BetterTogether/No Thanks campaign. Those that voted No on that basis but with the best of intentions were wrong.

No one voted in the 2014 referendum with any sort of expectation that there would be a Brexit vote 18 months later. For those No voters ( not those that voted Yes ) who did however priortise the EU when deciding the vote No. I can only guess that right now, they're finding the Brexit vote quite a bitter pill to swallow.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The answer you're looking for is. Austerity max.

When 64% of Scottish trade is with the UK and will be subject to tariffs.

And 15% of Scottish trade is done with the EU, so I read although I'm yet to confirm that.

"Vote 'Yes' in 2017 for independence and destitution!", hardly the best strapline is it. But at least you'll be able to holiday in the EU without the need for a visa, if you can afford it.

But hey, you'll be Scottish and not British, silver linings and all that.

I'm actually very surprised you had the guts to vote Leave in the EU ref. You cannot see anything but disaster when unions end.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

The SNP I notice are always keen to say that the break up of the Union will mean that Scotland will still enjoy friendly relations with the rUK. I really can't see that being the case for a number of years.
Scotland and its goods will become an anathema especially to the English, who will rightly or wrongly want to exact some financial revenge on the ungrateful and duplicitous Scots . I can see the newspaper and social media campaigns imploring Brits to stop supporting Scottish businesses now.
The 'subsidy' umbilical is designed to keep the Scots tied to the Union, if the Scots go it alone, they should expect a less supine and a more overtly aggressive rUK going forward. A sub 15% rate of corporation tax would probably wipe most Scottish businesses out. Beware the English 'Tiger'!

revenge, ungrateful, duplicitious Scots. Organised 'resistance' against Scots businesses. Ooooh, I'm not sure why any nation would want to share a Union when the other side thinks that.

The English Tiger lol !

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Response as above in Bold Blue

String, you voted Remain, so did I.. lets both work together and smooth the path towards the SNP and all the other Scottish poltical parties working towards what we both wanted on 23rd of June. Scotland staying in the EU. ( The ship has sadly sailed for England and Wales ).

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I'm actually very surprised you had the guts to vote Leave in the EU ref. You cannot see anything but disaster when unions end.

The EU was constricting trade.

Vote for independence to join the EU, you'll find out why I voted to leave it