The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Yep, that's the best I've go... oh wait no, that'll be the economic impact that you completely ignore. I guess I thought I'd try something else since your rebuttal to the economic argument was basically 'It'll happen to England too', gold.

Any barriers to trade imposed between Scotland and rUK will affect rUK too. That I don't feel is an unreasonable assumption to make.

Again speaking for the entire eligible vote, I must have missed the media reporting your appointment to this position.

A majority of the Scottish electorate voted SNP in 2007, 2011, 2015 and in 2016. Again, it's not an unreasonable position to point out the simple fact that this is true. A majority of people in Scotland now vote SNP in their particular constituencies. They have done for some time now. It's why they are in power after all.

Yes she did say that, and it was true, she probably was surprised to be campaigning for remain since they couldn't predict the future back in 2014. I'm glad you finally agree.

Neither could Alex Salmond. Who's probably just as surprised that in his view a once in a generation opportunity.. wasn't.

Scottish Labour are making noises now too.

SCOTTISH Labour’s deputy leader wants independence to be included in a new national conversation on Scotland’s future following the Brexit vote and said he would not oppose a second referendum...

...Rowley also said: “I have lost count of the number of people who have asked whether I support a second referendum on independence. My response is that I would not oppose such a referendum.“I accept the SNP were clear in their manifesto that the Scottish Parliament would have the right to hold another one if there was a ‘significant and material change’ in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014 – such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”
He added that it remained “an unknown quantity” what the UK will look like outside of the EU, meaning that another referendum would be “a very different proposition” from the 2014 vote.

http://www.thenational.scot/news/deputy-leader-alex-rowley-calls-for-labour-to-debate-the-independence-option.20241

Dugdale and Rennie are being boxed into a corner into coming out with their own official positions as both have been bleating on about 'wanting to have both unions'. They also have a stark choice to make in the very near future. Partick Harvie ( Greens ) is already all for another referendum should Scotland look like getting pulled out of the EU. It's the Greens and the SNP that hold the balance of power within Holyrood. And it's Holyrood that will call any advisory referendum.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

What absolute rubbish ! If engineering a situation means people voting for you or your policies, then every single political party in the UK goes about 'engineering situations' every day.

How does a political party engineer a situation exactly ? Have policies people agree with perhaps ?

Lets explore this some more.

1. SNP come to power in Scottish parliament.

2. Conservative party conference confirms there will be an EU in/out referendum if they win GE 2015.

3. SNP get a vote on Scottish independence in 2014.

4. The independence vote fails, Scots choose to be governed by the UK government.

5. GE 2015 - Conservative party majority, EU in/out referendum is going to happen.

6. Scottish Parliament elections take place. SNP puts in their manifesto that if there is material change in Scotland's relationship with the EU they should have the right to hold another independence referendum and the SNP are returned to power.

7. EU referendum takes place, SNP are found pleading with pro-independence anti-EU voters to vote to remain in the EU to gain a 'mandate' to hold another independence referendum.



Now if you look at the vote that took place to put in place this engineered situation via the SNP manifesto in the Scottish parliament elections (point 6) it was based on a turnout of 55%, of which the SNP had 46% of that 55%, that's not 9% less, that's less than half of the 55%.

You are correct that all of the political parties in Scotland were campaigning to remain in the EU, Better Together stood for exactly the same position the stood on in the 2014 independence referendum. In 2014 the SNP were campaigning to take you out of the EU.

However there is evidence and motive for the SNP to want the remain vote to succeed purely to have another crack at independence.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Any barriers to trade imposed between Scotland and rUK will affect rUK too. That I don't feel is an unreasonable assumption to make.

What are you not understanding here...

Scotland sells 64% of its international trade into the UK.

If Scotland becomes independent and joins the EU, Scotland is then bound by any trade deal done between the UK and the EU.

If the UK and EU deal is for free trade there's no need for a referendum on independence according to you and others.

If the UK and EU deal does not include free trade then you want a referendum on independence.

Therefore an independent Scotland will only exist in a situation where 64% of Scottish trade is no longer free trade.

And your argument against that, in two or more posts now has been - "It'll happen to England too". Where on earth does that address the impact on the Scottish economy?

Leanne1812

I don't contribute much on here either because it is frustrating. It seems like if you support the SNP and or independence then you are an idiot, economically illiterate or just a freedom seeking screaming bravehert nationalist. It does wear thin.......

All this tells me is that many just do not 'get' what this is all about. Simply a nation being in control of its destiny. Not being overruled by its larger neighbour as demonstrated recently. Those who believe in the union say suck it up but those who want independence feel this shows exactly why this union doesn't suit us anymore. It's an emotional attachment for some and I do understand that but cannot fathom why we can't be good friends & neighbours if and when the union comes to an end. Those who would love to see Scotland fail or wish it to end in tears for us saddens me. I like & respect my fellow uk citizens and that won't change whatever the future holds.

I read this thread with interest and I'm still bewildered to see so many think this is an anti-English campaign. I can only feel those that do have fallen for how the media portrays Scots & Scotland. Again, it's very sad & nothing could be further from the truth for the vast majority.

As Shakes has been trying to point out independence & the SNP was/is what Yes voters believe is the best option for Scotland's future. Ending a political union that recently has shown how increasingly divergent it is becoming is ultimately what this is about for me anyway. Where is power best placed & who looks out for Scotland's best interests.

I read frequently about the economics of it all and how we'd never survive & be a total basket case yet many Leave voters had the same arguments we did in 2014 and still chose to leave. Something to ponder.

That's my tuppence anyway.

Have a good day everyone. There's a big yellow thing in the sky here today in Scotland which visits not too frequently so I'm off to enjoy. :-)

TrickyTree83

Leanne1812 wrote: »

I don't contribute much on here either because it is frustrating. It seems like if you support the SNP and or independence then you are an idiot, economically illiterate or just a freedom seeking screaming bravehert nationalist. It does wear thin.......

All this tells me is that many just do not 'get' what this is all about. Simply a nation being in control of its destiny. Not being overruled by its larger neighbour as demonstrated recently. Those who believe in the union say suck it up but those who want independence feel this shows exactly why this union doesn't suit us anymore. It's an emotional attachment for some and I do understand that but cannot fathom why we can't be good friends & neighbours if and when the union comes to an end. Those who would love to see Scotland fail or wish it to end in tears for us saddens me. I like & respect my fellow uk citizens and that won't change whatever the future holds.

I read this thread with interest and I'm still bewildered to see so many think this is an anti-English campaign. I can only feel those that do have fallen for how the media portrays Scots & Scotland. Again, it's very sad & nothing could be further from the truth for the vast majority.

As Shakes has been trying to point out independence & the SNP was/is what Yes voters believe is the best option for Scotland's future. Ending a political union that recently has shown how increasingly divergent it is becoming is ultimately what this is about for me anyway. Where is power best placed & who looks out for Scotland's best interests.

I read frequently about the economics of it all and how we'd never survive & be a total basket case yet many Leave voters had the same arguments we did in 2014 and still chose to leave. Something to ponder.

That's my tuppence anyway.

Have a good day everyone. There's a big yellow thing in the sky here today in Scotland which visits not too frequently so I'm off to enjoy. :-)

An emotive argument that ignores reality. How does that not conjure images of the Braveheart film for those not emotionally invested in your point of view?

If you're not economically illiterate then please explain how you/the SNP/Scottish nationalists propose to resolve the £9bn+ deficit, plus the loss of a large proportion if not most of the 64% of Scottish trade with the rest of the UK which would no doubt increase that deficit? Higher taxes, lower public spending, both?

You had the choice to be in control of your destiny in 2014 (2 years ago...), and Scotland said no and decided to share a destiny within the UK.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Lets explore this some more.

1. SNP come to power in Scottish parliament.

2. Conservative party conference confirms there will be an EU in/out referendum if they win GE 2015.

3. SNP get a vote on Scottish independence in 2014.

4. The independence vote fails, Scots choose to be governed by the UK government.

5. GE 2015 - Conservative party majority, EU in/out referendum is going to happen.

6. Scottish Parliament elections take place. SNP puts in their manifesto that if there is material change in Scotland's relationship with the EU they should have the right to hold another independence referendum and the SNP are returned to power.

7. EU referendum takes place, SNP are found pleading with pro-independence anti-EU voters to vote to remain in the EU to gain a 'mandate' to hold another independence referendum.

Now if you look at the vote that took place to put in place this engineered situation via the SNP manifesto in the Scottish parliament elections (point 6) it was based on a turnout of 55%, of which the SNP had 46% of that 55%, that's not 9% less, that's less than half of the 55%.

You are correct that all of the political parties in Scotland were campaigning to remain in the EU, Better Together stood for exactly the same position the stood on in the 2014 independence referendum.

However there is evidence and motive for the SNP to want the remain vote to succeed purely to have another crack at independence.

It's an accurate-ish timeline. But it says nothing about the future, and it's the future we're addressing here.

The SNP have always been pro EU. A notable number of their voter base isn't. The same can be said of all the other parties to a greater or lesser degree. Labour, Lib Dem's, Greens and Ruth Davidson were all pleading for a Remain vote too. As was indeed the UK Prime Minister. To condense this down to the SNP is grossly misrepresenting what happened a few weeks/months ago.

No one in 2014 thought there would be an EU vote. Not even the Tories at the time who thought they would be heading into at best, another coalition with the Lib Dems. Labour were ahead in the polls at the time of the 2014 referendum. In fact, it was the polls after the referendum that October, that started showing Labour's chances of a GE win being eradicated... by a sudden rise in SNP support.

Blimey, one minute you're saying it's ok for Ruth Davidson not to know the future. But then in the next you're saying that the entirety of the Scottish electorate should have predictive powers. Make up your mind.

But the SNP have been in power since 2007. Well before any of this EU stuff came up, and they were pro-EU then too.

TrickyTree83

Where have I [STRIKE]said[/STRIKE] implied the entire Scottish electorate should have predictive powers?

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

What are you not understanding here...

Scotland sells 64% of its international trade into the UK.

If Scotland becomes independent and joins the EU, Scotland is then bound by any trade deal done between the UK and the EU.

If the UK and EU deal is for free trade there's no need for a referendum on independence according to you and others.

If the UK and EU deal does not include free trade then you want a referendum on independence.

Therefore an independent Scotland will only exist in a situation where 64% of Scottish trade is no longer free trade.

And your argument against that, in two or more posts now has been - "It'll happen to England too". Where on earth does that address the impact on the Scottish economy?

That's why all options are being considered. Including whether it would be possible for Scotland/NI and Gibraltar to remain within the EU, while England and Wales leave.

I suspect Sturgeon and her new cross party and independent panel of EU experts ( who met for the first time last week ) will present some sort of option covering the above. But will of course be laughed out of town.

Sadly,( but not that sadly ) she will then have to go back to Scotland and say she tried, but the only real option left is to hold a referendum on leaving the UK in order to proper represent the 62% of Scots voters she and the Scottish Govt have a duty to represent.
Scottish Labour and the Lib Dems then will have to leap one way or the other. Eu nationals who voted No the last time to ensure EU membership will vote Yes, and then there's all the 16/17 year olds, people like Hamish, and a fair swathe of Labour voters who voted No last time... thinking Labour and Miliband would be in power.

But this all still depends on future events, and just how far Theresa May is willing to go to ensure good trade deals v's p*****g off those who won't countenance free movement.

There's still hope that a deal can be done whereby Scotland stays in both the UK and the EU. But for every sneery 'Blow to Sturgeon' headline advocating that the UK will be taken out of the EU in full. They might want to catch on soon that they're only serving to shoot Scottish Labour and the Lib dems foxes ( who want both unions ), not the SNP's, who are only really that keen on one of them.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Where have I [STRIKE]said[/STRIKE] implied the entire Scottish electorate should have predictive powers?

Loads of times. You've said that in Sept 2014 everyone KNEW there was an EU referendum coming up. They didn't. Not even Ruth Davidson did.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Loads of times. You've said that in Sept 2014 everyone KNEW there was an EU referendum coming up. They didn't. Not even Ruth Davidson did.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say they knew there was an EU referendum. No one did.

I'm pretty sure I said that it was announced at a Conservative party conference prior to the 2014 indy vote. So they had foreknowledge of the possibility of an EU referendum, if they bothered to look.