The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

.string.

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You're pushing water uphill in a headwind pal, but thanks for picking up the baton, I need a rest. :rotfl:

I don't blame you, it can be a drag, But it's useful for getting insight into SNP-type thinking.

You've done well.

Scotland is well worth battling for but arguing with members of the Collective (ref Star Trek) is not productive, hilarious though it may be sometimes. That's why I leave the baton alone a lot.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The facts you present aren't facts that I or a majority of the Scots electorate who live and work in Scotland recognise as such. For reference I suggest you look at the votes shares in GE 15, the Scottish GE 15, and the EU ref 16.

The SNP do a fairly good job at what they do in Holyrood. And you're looking at things through a fairly narrow prism because the SNP have the word 'National' in it's title. Can I refer you to this study which may provide you with some wider clarity and perspective about how Scots see the SNP.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/there-was-no-rise-in-scottish-nationalism-understanding-the-snp-victory/


Not everything is entangled. Not an oppressed people no. However, there are marked differences in voting patterns which are becoming more and more problematic in a political union. Especially when it comes to representation within a political union. The Brexit vote has brought with it stark choices and realisations.

Independence inevitable, I think it's a view many people are taking across the UK. But it won't be done via UDI.

How do you expect to continue to discuss this issue without acknowledging the reality of voting to remain in the UK in 2014?

Sentiment changes all the time, that's not a basis for a referendum every single time there's a swing in opinion.

Consider that you did have a referendum, and you did become independent, then regretted it (as I expect would be the case) and sentiment ran the other way and you wanted back in the union. Will you hold another referendum then? Because that is the position you're taking according to your logic. The 'neverendum' scenario.

The choice was set out before the Scottish people in 2014. They chose and that should have been the end of it. It was as your esteemed former leader said 'A once in a lifetime opportunity'. He's rowed back on that so hard on that he ought to put in for Single's at Henley Regatta for Scotland.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Oh you said it all right, It was prior to the once-in-a-lifetime referendum. The content was related to the current SNP-touted fantasy of Natland getting a seamless entry into the EU.

But I don't blame for not wanting to troll back over your old posts,

Regarding your last para, Again in your ranting and raving remark you assume a seamless EU membership. However that's not realistic and instead were Scotland to separate they would emerge outside both the EU and outside the UK and would know full well that Scotland would only be able to join the EU after their economy was in good shape (after xxyears) and then be obligated to join the EURO zone (*).

Calm down string. Personal attacks aren't going to get anyone anywhere.

This, by the way, is your due to say braveheart things about the EU not really being that important in SNP thinking and so on, exactly the context where you said the same thing a year or two back.

Don't remember saying anything of the sort. I DO remember however, going through pages and pages of debate with you on EU membership during 2014. Arguing that the EU would accept Scotland no problem if independence was voted for. I still believe the same but we'll never know now what would have happened. Things are very different now because England and Wales want to leave. People like you are still stuck running the same old, same old 2014 'Spain will veto' spiel.

Had the UK been in the Euro Zone when we had the referendum it would have had a different EU (and not in my opinion attractive for the UK) and not in Scotland's interests, to leave either whether the UK is in the EU or not.

But we had a privileged place in the EU, and I have been in favour of remaining in both. I want the best for my country, each part of it.

(*) yes I know it is at first "just" a commitment and not necessarily immediate. Maybe SNP's attitude to commitments is something you can cling to.

You've lost me.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You're pushing water uphill in a headwind pal, but thanks for picking up the baton, I need a rest. :rotfl:

No one is forcing you to post. string and I are old friends.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I must have been seeing things then when I watched Ruth Davidson give Boris Johnson what for on national tv... because she wants to stay in the EU ?

But...but...but... you said earlier that she lied about a 'No' vote being to remain in the EU in 2014. And then she campaigned to remain when it transpired there was an in/out EU referendum.

Seems to me like she's a pretty responsible and honest politician, not the same that could be said of Nicola who greeted her PM with two Saltire's behind the pair of them and no UK flag.



There doesn't appear to be a lot of respect there for the idea of the UK. #divisive

Stark contrast to this:



I'd consider that an insight into the persona of Nicola and/or the SNP in general.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

How do you expect to continue to discuss this issue without acknowledging the reality of voting to remain in the UK in 2014?

Sentiment changes all the time, that's not a basis for a referendum every single time there's a swing in opinion.

Consider that you did have a referendum, and you did become independent, then regretted it (as I expect would be the case) and sentiment ran the other way and you wanted back in the union. Will you hold another referendum then? Because that is the position you're taking according to your logic. The 'neverendum' scenario.

The choice was set out before the Scottish people in 2014. They chose and that should have been the end of it. It was as your esteemed former leader said 'A once in a lifetime opportunity'. He's rowed back on that so hard on that he ought to put in for Single's at Henley Regatta for Scotland.

So everything Salmond said from 2011 was absolute tosh.. yet when he said 'in my view..once in a lifetime opportunity' the entirety of the Scottish population need to be held forever more due to the absolute truth he spoke. Dream on.

He's a back bench MP now. Sturgeon is in charge and there's been a Scottish General Election since. The referendum in 2014 was a No vote to remain in the UK. But things change...

It'll be a Yes vote if Scotland is taken out of the EU, whether the referendum is advisory or not. Mrs May can deal with that then.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

But...but...but... you said earlier that she lied about a 'No' vote being to remain in the EU in 2014. And then she campaigned to remain when it transpired there was an in/out EU referendum.

Seems to me like she's a pretty responsible and honest politician, not the same that could be said of Nicola who greeted her PM with two Saltire's behind the pair of them and no UK flag.



There doesn't appear to be a lot of respect there for the idea of the UK. #divisive

Is that the best you can come up with ? Flag waving or not.

To Scots the SNP is just a normal, everyday political party who at the moment a majority of people seem to trust to get on with the job of running Scotland. Quite a few of them are also coming round to the idea of them running an independent Scotland too/within the EU... but only for a short time. They'll likely split shortly after.

Ruth Davidson was certainly saying in 2014 that a No vote was the only way to keep Scotland in the EU. I think that even she was a bit surprised to be having to take on Boris Johnson a mere 18 months later on national tv to argue the toss about staying. It provided great amusement up here I can tell you.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

So everything Salmond said from 2011 was absolute tosh.. yet when he said 'in my view..once in a lifetime opportunity' the entirety of the Scottish population need to be held forever more due to the absolute truth he spoke. Dream on.

He's a back bench MP now. Sturgeon is in charge and there's been a Scottish General Election since. The referendum in 2014 was a No vote to remain in the UK. But things change...

The leader of the SNP at the time said it. It's yet another fact you want to brush off because it's not convenient to acknowledge it.

The SNP have then engineered a situation which would bias people toward voting to remain in the hope that it would trigger another independence referendum.

Of course things change, but as I said if you have a referendum every time things change then you'll be in a perpetual state of flux as a country. Sound thinking. Say the EU decides to federalise (5 presidents report), are you going to have a referendum on leaving the EU then or be part of a federal EU state with less Scottish independence? Laughable politics.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It'll be a Yes vote if Scotland is taken out of the EU, whether the referendum is advisory or not. Mrs May can deal with that then.

This is fantastic. You speak for the entire Scottish eligible vote now?

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Is that the best you can come up with ? Flag waving or not.

Yep, that's the best I've go... oh wait no, that'll be the economic impact that you completely ignore. I guess I thought I'd try something else since your rebuttal to the economic argument was basically 'It'll happen to England too', gold.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

To Scots the SNP is just a normal, everyday political party who at the moment a majority of people seem to trust to get on with the job of running Scotland. Quite a few of them are also coming round to the idea of them running an independent Scotland too/within the EU... but only for a short time. They'll likely split shortly after.

Again speaking for the entire eligible vote, I must have missed the media reporting your appointment to this position.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Ruth Davidson was certainly saying in 2014 that a No vote was the only way to keep Scotland in the EU. I think that even she was a bit surprised to be having to take on Boris Johnson a mere 18 months later on national tv to argue the toss about staying. It provided great amusement up here I can tell you.

Yes she did say that, and it was true, she probably was surprised to be campaigning for remain since they couldn't predict the future back in 2014. I'm glad you finally agree.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The leader of the SNP at the time said it. It's yet another fact you want to brush off because it's not convenient to acknowledge it.

The SNP have then engineered a situation which would bias people toward voting to remain in the hope that it would trigger another independence referendum.

What absolute rubbish ! If engineering a situation means people voting for you or your policies, then every single political party in the UK goes about 'engineering situations' every day.

How does a political party engineer a situation exactly ? Have policies people agree with perhaps ?

Of course things change, but as I said if you have a referendum every time things change then you'll be in a perpetual state of flux as a country. Sound thinking. Say the EU decides to federalise (5 presidents report), are you going to have a referendum on leaving the EU then or be part of a federal EU state with less Scottish independence? Laughable politics.

Its a pretty big change really. And a change Scottish people didn't want, there's a choice whether to just suck it up, or leave. EU or UK, Scots can no longer have both. That's a pretty big change in circumstances.

This is fantastic. You speak for the entire Scottish eligible vote now?

No just the recent polling. It's reasonable to assume that the 55% in 2014 are much reduced in numbers. I speak for no one but myself in this particular debate. But the polling numbers are currently showing a clear trend. May will have a honeymoon period, and there seems to be a general feeling of unreality and that Article 50 will never be invoked. The full impact of what the Brexit vote has had/will have on the Scottish electorate won't be clear until Article 50 is invoked, and the EU state what options for Scotland are on the table should it vote for independence.