The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Wanting to overturn a legitimate 2014 vote, there was no mis-information as you claimed. Better Together were absolutely right that Scottish EU membership (if that is the be all and end all of the Scottish question) as part of the UK would have been lost.

The 2014 referendum vote was fully respected. It's either that or Scotland has gone independent and no one has noticed yet.

As a result of the 2014 referendum meaning Scotland remained in the UK, Scotland was then invited to participate as a member of the UK in the UK's referendum on EU membership and is now denying the result claiming Scottish views should be taken in isolation on a UK wide referendum.

The SNP are now pushing for an independence referendum in both parliaments and the media despite not knowing the outcome of any UK negotiations. Thus not allowing the people of Scotland to make an informed choice, just between an independent Scotland or something else. A biased situation.

No, it's the people that vote for them, as well as others who aren't happy about Brexit. The SNP can't be taken in isolation as you keep doing. If their policies and proposals, and that includes any material changes they put in their manifesto, weren't liked and endorsed by the Scottish public, then they wouldn't be in power. Simple as that.

Nicola Sturgeon urging people of Scotland who want independence but also wanting to leave the EU to vote for remain in order to achieve another independence referendum by the back door.

Turning the SNP into the party of democratic unacceptability in attempting to overturn 2 legal referenda when considered in their correct context and not through the distorted lens of the SNP.

Again you're taking the SNP in isolation and treating the Scottish electorate like idiots 'doing what they are told'. Is not just SNP that potentially want to overturn any referenda. It's Scottish citizens and residents. Otherwise the SNP wouldn't have any voters.

At the end of the day there are a lot of Scots who currently want to leave the UK. Brexit has perhaps only added to their numbers, not reduced them. Westminster and the EU will have to deal with the fall out.

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The SNP have been hugely pro-EU for decades regardless of votes it garners. You're wrong on this one.

Well it was you that posted about the SNP's position being ambivalent on the EU; since you are the local expert on the SNP I am simply repeating the essence of what you posted.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Kevin Hague has an agenda just as WingsoverScotland does. And never the twain shall meet. Like you put forward yourself, many Yes voters in Scotland do expect a short term 'shock' to the system.. no pain, no gain.

However, ALL predictions so far in terms of Scotland leaving the UK never, ever get further than highlighting the 'could's and the 'mights' of this short term shock. GERS is a yearly set of accounts which Kevin Hague bases his figures on, full of estimates and guesswork ( as the GERS publication notes itself ). Not any sort of mid to long term economic plan or proposals.

You say it all yourself on the other thread. The terms of the UK leaving the EU are unknown, so ultimately then, must be the terms of Scotland leaving the UK.

http://www.cityam.com/245697/independent-scotland-inside-eu-would-economic-powerhouse

Single market access will be the trigger point for any future Scottish referendum once Article 50 is invoked. Lets hope May, Johnson, Fox and Davies secure it in some form.

ps Am not getting into any debates about GERS again. Hamish and I have been round the block and back again with that for years. I have no interest in doing so again.

The terms of an agreement between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK aren't known, I agree. But by becoming independent and then joining the EU you will be shackling yourselves to the will of the EU with regards to a trading partner that constitutes 64% of all of Scotlands international trade.

Therefore if the UK gets a good deal from the EU and obtains free trade, there's no reason for independence as you've just said (so why push for a referendum in 2017?). If the UK doesn't get free trade, you have your reason to leave and will be slashing a large proportion of the 64% of trade. Where's the magic money coming from to fill that hole?

There's no way you can spin that as being good for Scotland to become independent, aligning yourselves with an EU market that accounts for less than 46% of your trade at the expense of 64% of your trade.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The 2014 referendum vote was fully respected. It's either that or Scotland has gone independent and no one has noticed yet.

No, it's the people that vote for them, as well as others who aren't happy about Brexit. The SNP can't be taken in isolation as you keep doing. If their policies and proposals, and that includes any material changes they put in their manifesto, weren't liked and endorsed by the Scottish public, then they wouldn't be in power. Simple as that.

Again you're taking the SNP in isolation and treating the Scottish electorate like idiots 'doing what they are told'. Is not just SNP that potentially want to overturn any referenda. It's Scottish citizens and residents. Otherwise the SNP wouldn't have any voters.

At the end of the day there are a lot of Scots who currently want to leave the UK. Brexit has perhaps only added to their numbers, not reduced them. Westminster and the EU will have to deal with the fall out.

The 2014 referendum on independence should be taken in isolation as it was intended.

Scotland voted to remain part of the UK. End of, no caveats.

(although the SNP have tried to add an addendum in a Scottish Parliament manifesto, laughable with regards to the UK constitution, again demonstrative of their poisonous mantra)

Therefore Scotland took part in a referendum on the UK's EU membership (not Scotland's, I'll repeat it again so it's clear - not Scotland's). If you had voted Yes in 2014 you wouldn't have been presented this referendum because you wouldn't have been part of the UK.

All of the above is true and accurate is it not?

Then the outcome of the 2016 EU referendum has nothing to do with Scottish politics or the nation of Scotland feeling as though they have been taken out of the EU against their will since it was a UK wide vote. Not - as Nicola Sturgeon wanted - a nation by nation vote requiring all 4 nations to agree. All citizens of the UK were considered equal, one person, one vote. That is all.

The SNP and Scottish nationalists are spinning these situations to persue their own agenda and they've convinced some people in Scotland that the above statements are not the case and that Scotland is somehow special in that they voted as a nation and not as citizens of the UK. That clearly is not true no matter how you spin it.

The logic used is on a par with saying that each borough, or area of England, Wales and Northern Ireland that voted to remain in the EU has a right to hold an independence referendum off the back of the UK referendum.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Well it was you that posted about the SNP's position being ambivalent on the EU; since you are the local expert on the SNP I am simply repeating the essence of what you posted.

No. It wasn't. They've been pro-EU for decades. And Sturgeon has been saying since the EU ref was announced that Scots wouldn't be happy getting pulled out. She was 100% right about that.

Ambivalent between the Tory/Labour in-fighting that went on for months in the run up, Yes. Most of us up here were. There was a Scottish Election on.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The terms of an agreement between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK aren't known, I agree. But by becoming independent and then joining the EU you will be shackling yourselves to the will of the EU with regards to a trading partner that constitutes 64% of all of Scotlands international trade.

Therefore if the UK gets a good deal from the EU and obtains free trade, there's no reason for independence as you've just said (so why push for a referendum in 2017?). If the UK doesn't get free trade, you have your reason to leave and will be slashing a large proportion of the 64% of trade. Where's the magic money coming from to fill that hole?

There's no way you can spin that as being good for Scotland to become independent, aligning yourselves with an EU market that accounts for less than 46% of your trade at the expense of 64% of your trade.

Well that will be up to others. Not you. And it's staying in the EU not joining.

The same place as the 60 billions worth of trade England sells to Scotland I suppose. I don't suppose that will be so good for England either. You're likely to have far larger worries than trade with Scotland though if there is no Single Market agreement.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No. It wasn't. They've been pro-EU for decades. And Sturgeon has been saying since the EU ref was announced that Scots wouldn't be happy getting pulled out. She was 100% right about that.

Well as the EU ref was announced at the Conservative party conference before the 2014 indy vote, and the SNP were campaigning for a Yes vote which would have dissolved the union with Scotland and with it Scotland's place in the EU, how is this the case?

Nasty Nat has just been using the EU vote as another crack at independence. No other reason.

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No. It wasn't. They've been pro-EU for decades. And Sturgeon has been saying since the EU ref was announced that Scots wouldn't be happy getting pulled out. She was 100% right about that.

Ambivalent between the Tory/Labour in-fighting that went on for months in the run up, Yes. Most of us up here were. There was a Scottish Election on.

I believed what you said before but as for what you now say I don't believe you,

I think it is a "policy of convenience", a tool to be discarded as soon as someone else, preferably the UK, can be blaimed for its failure when seamless EU membership proves not to be possible.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The 2014 referendum on independence should be taken in isolation as it was intended.

Scotland voted to remain part of the UK. End of, no caveats.

(although the SNP have tried to add an addendum in a Scottish Parliament manifesto, laughable with regards to the UK constitution, again demonstrative of their poisonous mantra)

Therefore Scotland took part in a referendum on the UK's EU membership (not Scotland's, I'll repeat it again so it's clear - not Scotland's). If you had voted Yes in 2014 you wouldn't have been presented this referendum because you wouldn't have been part of the UK.

All of the above is true and accurate is it not?

Then the outcome of the 2016 EU referendum has nothing to do with Scottish politics or the nation of Scotland feeling as though they have been taken out of the EU against their will since it was a UK wide vote. Not - as Nicola Sturgeon wanted - a nation by nation vote requiring all 4 nations to agree. All citizens of the UK were considered equal, one person, one vote. That is all.

The SNP and Scottish nationalists are spinning these situations to persue their own agenda and they've convinced some people in Scotland that the above statements are not the case and that Scotland is somehow special in that they voted as a nation and not as citizens of the UK. That clearly is not true no matter how you spin it.

The logic used is on a par with saying that each borough, or area of England, Wales and Northern Ireland that voted to remain in the EU has a right to hold an independence referendum off the back of the UK referendum.

You might like to see things that way. But a majority of Scots do not do you agree ? Scotland voted as UK citizens to remain in the EU. If this does not happen, then it's only fair that Scottish citizens then get to choose which union is more important to them as a nation. Since they can no longer ( perhaps ) have both.

All four nations are supposedly equal partners in the UK. It's becoming increasingly clear that huge population differences for the smaller three nations mean it's extremely difficult to have any sort of defining say on the future of the UK. Either via Westminster, or UK wide referenda.

No-one is saying England and Wales shouldn't leave the EU if that's what they voted for. That's a decision that is to be respected. But on the other hand two nations don't want to leave, and that should be respected too. If there is any way of all four nations getting what they want then bring it on. But if there isn't, then perhaps it's time to reconsider individual nations priorities and aims for the future. Oh and by that I mean the people who vote. Not the what the SNP or the Tories want.

You're too black and white about the 2014 referendum too. There were promises made. Eu membership was one of them on a No vote.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Well that will be up to others. Not you. And it's staying in the EU not joining.

The same place as the 60 billions worth of trade England sells to Scotland I suppose. I don't suppose that will be so good for England either. You're likely to have far larger worries than trade with Scotland though if there is no Single Market agreement.

This isn't about England though is it.

This is about Scotland so lets keep on topic.

Is it not true that if you join the EU (and you will have to join, not remain since Scotland will be a new nation) that you will be subject to their trade deals. And if the UK does not get a free trade deal, that Scottish exports to the UK will have problems.

That does mean job losses, loss of tax revenue.

You simply have not considered this or you have a similar view to Hamish which is a blue sky hope that you poach unprecedented amounts of UK business. For that to happen the business has to leave, and has to choose Scotland as its destination of choice over the rest of the EU.

So then there's a deficit, plus loss of trade with your biggest trading partner. Does Nicola have a magic wand from the WB Harry Potter studios that's going to make this all go away?