The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

Yeah I deleted it. I felt pointing that fact about the 1960's SNP leader was a bit beyond the pale when I'm trying to inspire common sense rather than just attacking. It was a moment of weakness for me, fueled I expect by frustration.

At the end of the day the facts are the facts. They don't care about interpretation, feelings, morality or belief. They are just what they are. I've done my level best to put them across, but as the saying goes: "There are none so blind as those who cannot see.".

I don't believe I can be any clearer than I have been. On the ramifications of the 2014 vote, the implications of that, the context of the EU vote, and the ramifications of a future independence vote. The divisions being caused, the social fabric of a nation or group of nations that have mutually worked together for the common good of their people being torn apart by just one nation within it that claims to be different to the others despite over 300 years of shared heritage.

Are you really an oppressed people? Are you really so different to the English, the Welsh or the Northern Irish that you feel we don't have a mutual desire for the common good? Perhaps the other countries in the union had a different experience of the EU to Scotland, and once you go it alone you will perhaps find out what that really is. Or maybe everyone who voted leave is a bigoted, racist xenophobe. If as you seem to believe, the truth doesn't matter, what is the point in even having the debate in Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon should just declare independence now and be damned to the consequences. It's inevitable anyway, isn't it?

skintmacflint

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No, I voted Lib Dem in 2010. SNP in 2011. And I can read books and online material covering the SNP's history.

I don't know who you speak to, or who you what you read on social media, but leaving the EU or not isn't just an SNP issue. Sorry. Most voters from all parties and in all areas voted to Remain. You've missed the point I think and need to stop concentrating so much on the SNP when it comes to the EU.

Considering SNP has been trying to insinuate an EU leave vote is justification for a 2nd Indy ref since Oct 2014, think I can quite safely state this is very much SNP related in Scotland, and you're missing the point. Conveniently as ever.

skintmacflint

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I don't believe I can be any clearer than I have been. On the ramifications of the 2014 vote, the implications of that, the context of the EU vote, and the ramifications of a future independence vote. The divisions being caused, the social fabric of a nation or group of nations that have mutually worked together for the common good of their people being torn apart by just one nation within it that claims to be different to the others despite over 300 years of shared heritage.

Are you really an oppressed people? Are you really so different to the English, the Welsh or the Northern Irish that you feel we don't have a mutual desire for the common good? Perhaps the other countries in the union had a different experience of the EU to Scotland, and once you go it alone you will perhaps find out what that really is. Or maybe everyone who voted leave is a bigoted, racist xenophobe. If as you seem to believe, the truth doesn't matter, what is the point in even having the debate in Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon should just declare independence now and be damned to the consequences. It's inevitable anyway, isn't it?

Can I just point out that SNP do not speak for Scotland, although they like to pretend that they do . At every chance they get. Scotland as a nation, isn't trying to rip the UK apart, SNP/Yes voters just like to give the impression of that.

Don't confuse what SNP want , with what Scotland wants. And for what it's worth Independence isn't inevitable . Even Sturgeon knows that only too well.

mwpt

Generali wrote: »

Scotland had its chance to vote for independence. Brexit makes no difference to anything.

When Scotland voted to remain in the Union she voted to live with the democratic decisions of the Union, Brexit included.

Since the situation has materially changed, it would make sense to let the people of Scotland decide that, not you.

TrickyTree83

mwpt wrote: »

Since the situation has materially changed, it would make sense to let the people of Scotland decide that, not you.

Yet even though the choice is quite stark (as laid out in this thread) some of them appear willing to further damage the UK and you might say turn themselves into a miniature Greece, by miniature I'm just referring to the population size. The financial problems for iScotland look like they will be quite epic.

TrickyTree83

skintmacflint wrote: »

Can I just point out that SNP do not speak for Scotland, although they like to pretend that they do . At every chance they get. Scotland as a nation, isn't trying to rip the UK apart, SNP/Yes voters just like to give the impression of that.

Don't confuse what SNP want , with what Scotland wants. And for what it's worth Independence isn't inevitable . Even Sturgeon knows that only too well.

I sincerely hope that the divisive SNP message does not gain traction, and that the true fiscal plight of the country does gain traction with the people of Scotland.

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I can't remember ever saying the SNP was ambivalent about the EU. But I can't be bothered trawling through to see if I did, or what context it is. Feel free to remind me.

But I can assure you the SNP are, and have been loud and proud EU advocates for a long time. No one is saying any transition to Scottish EU membership would be seamless, but it's unlikely to mean Scotland leaving then rejoining. The EU themselves probably see that as a ludicrous proposition.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14591378.EU__transitional_holding_pen__talks_for_Scotland_have_been_held__MSPs_told/

Is funny string, you were one of the loudest EU remainers on here. It's very weird to see you ranting and railing against Scotland staying in. Something which you hoped England/Wales would vote for too. Don't you hope for Scotland what you passionately voted for yourself ? Staying in the EU ?

Oh you said it all right, It was prior to the once-in-a-lifetime referendum. The content was related to the current SNP-touted fantasy of Natland getting a seamless entry into the EU.

But I don't blame for not wanting to troll back over your old posts,

Regarding your last para, Again in your ranting and raving remark you assume a seamless EU membership. However that's not realistic and instead were Scotland to separate they would emerge outside both the EU and outside the UK and would know full well that Scotland would only be able to join the EU after their economy was in good shape (after xxyears) and then be obligated to join the EURO zone (*).

This, by the way, is your due to say braveheart things about the EU not really being that important in SNP thinking and so on, exactly the context where you said the same thing a year or two back.

Had the UK been in the Euro Zone when we had the referendum it would have had a different EU (and not in my opinion attractive for the UK) and not in Scotland's interests, to leave either whether the UK is in the EU or not.

But we had a privileged place in the EU, and I have been in favour of remaining in both. I want the best for my country, each part of it.

(*) yes I know it is at first "just" a commitment and not necessarily immediate. Maybe SNP's attitude to commitments is something you can cling to.

TrickyTree83

.string. wrote: »

Oh you said it all right, It was prior to the once-in-a-lifetime referendum. The content was related to the current SNP-touted fantasy of Natland getting a seamless entry into the EU.

But I don't blame for not wanting to troll back over your old posts,

Regarding your last para, Again in your ranting and raving remark you assume a seamless EU membership. However that's not realistic and instead were Scotland to separate they would emerge outside both the EU and outside the UK and would know full well that Scotland would only be able to join the EU after their economy was in good shape (after xxyears) and then be obligated to join the EURO zone (*).

This, by the way, is your due to say braveheart things about the EU not really being that important in SNP thinking and so on, exactly the context where you said the same thing a year or two back.

Had the UK been in the Euro Zone when we had the referendum it would have had a different EU (and not in my opinion attractive for the UK) and not in Scotland's interests, to leave either whether the UK is in the EU or not.

But we had a privileged place in the EU, and I have been in favour of remaining in both. I want the best for my country, each part of it.

(*) yes I know it is at first "just" a commitment and not necessarily immediate. Maybe SNP's attitude to commitments is something you can cling to.

You're pushing water uphill in a headwind pal, but thanks for picking up the baton, I need a rest. :rotfl:

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Yeah I deleted it. I felt pointing that fact about the 1960's SNP leader was a bit beyond the pale when I'm trying to inspire common sense rather than just attacking. It was a moment of weakness for me, fueled I expect by frustration.

At the end of the day the facts are the facts. They don't care about interpretation, feelings, morality or belief. They are just what they are. I've done my level best to put them across, but as the saying goes: "There are none so blind as those who cannot see.".

The facts you present aren't facts that I or a majority of the Scots electorate who live and work in Scotland recognise as such. For reference I suggest you look at the votes shares in GE 15, the Scottish GE 15, and the EU ref 16.

The SNP do a fairly good job at what they do in Holyrood. And you're looking at things through a fairly narrow prism because the SNP have the word 'National' in it's title. Can I refer you to this study which may provide you with some wider clarity and perspective about how Scots see the SNP.

There was no rise in Scottish nationalism: Understanding the SNP victory

Crucially, commentators need to stop painting a picture in which the majority of Scotland predominantly base their political decision making mostly on their national identity. There has been no rise in nationalistic sentiment in Scotland. As we (amongst others) have repeatedly shown in our research, the strongest determinants of both independence and SNP support were pragmatic evaluations about economic prospects, trustworthiness and political personnel. For most people in Scotland the SNP is a normal party, that they like, hate or are indifferent to, but those evaluations for most are based on whether people agree with their policies and how they evaluate their representation.

If commentators want to understand why the SNP is successful, they need to make a greater effort at properly understanding how public attitudes are formed in Scotland. Suggesting that it is down to sentiment is lazy at best, but actually misrepresenting the majority of Scottish voters.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/there-was-no-rise-in-scottish-nationalism-understanding-the-snp-victory/

I don't believe I can be any clearer than I have been. On the ramifications of the 2014 vote, the implications of that, the context of the EU vote, and the ramifications of a future independence vote. The divisions being caused, the social fabric of a nation or group of nations that have mutually worked together for the common good of their people being torn apart by just one nation within it that claims to be different to the others despite over 300 years of shared heritage.

Not everything is entangled.

The Lord President did give his opinion that "the principle of unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle and has no counterpart in Scottish constitutional law".

Are you really an oppressed people? Are you really so different to the English, the Welsh or the Northern Irish that you feel we don't have a mutual desire for the common good? Perhaps the other countries in the union had a different experience of the EU to Scotland, and once you go it alone you will perhaps find out what that really is. Or maybe everyone who voted leave is a bigoted, racist xenophobe. If as you seem to believe, the truth doesn't matter, what is the point in even having the debate in Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon should just declare independence now and be damned to the consequences. It's inevitable anyway, isn't it?

Not an oppressed people no. However, there are marked differences in voting patterns which are becoming more and more problematic in a political union. Especially when it comes to representation within a political union. The Brexit vote has brought with it stark choices and realisations.

Independence inevitable, I think it's a view many people are taking across the UK. But it won't be done via UDI.

Shakethedisease

skintmacflint wrote: »

Considering SNP has been trying to insinuate an EU leave vote is justification for a 2nd Indy ref since Oct 2014, think I can quite safely state this is very much SNP related in Scotland, and you're missing the point. Conveniently as ever.

I must have been seeing things then when I watched Ruth Davidson give Boris Johnson what for on national tv... because she wants to stay in the EU ?

Remaining in the EU certainly isn't just an SNP issue.