The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

The only way that the SNP will get another referendum will be if Westminster allows it so they would have no choice but to agree to what you call a booby trap.

Well we'll find out on Thursday what the plan is. But I reckon they're just going to name the date and get on with starting the campaign. Then sit back and wait for the inevitable challenge.

From the very beginning the SNP's whole red line was leaving the Single Market. I guess they're sticking to that and will go all out for an Yes vote before Dec 2020 regardless. That way Scotland can stay in some sort of 'transition' ( like N Ireland ) while Boris drags England and Wales out on a catastrophic no deal with no one to stop him.

Anyway, the referendum thing has never been tested in court. So no one really knows what will happen there. Worth remembering though that while Catalonia is an autonomous region in Spain. Scotland is a nation/kingdom currently in the UK due to signing a TREATY. Not the same thing at all.

Speaking on BBC Radio Scotland, Dr Andrew Tickell, a law lecturer at Glasgow Caledonian University,


He added: "It is worth saying that - although endlessly repeated in the media - the idea that it's absolutely categorical that Holyrood doesn't have the power to hold a second independence referendum on its own back has never been tested (in court) and has never been proven. "This is often simply blandly echoed, but it isn't actually the case and it remains contested and unclear."

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/5073118/nicola-sturgeon-scotland-indyref2-boris-johnson/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebarweb

elantan

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Funny that the campaign was built on the premise of Stop Brexit and having a second EU referendum......

Give someone a spade and let them dig hole for themselves.

why then did Nicola say every time it was asked if she was going for indy the answer was yes ?

and just to add to the mix the tories stood on a no to indy ref ticket and lost half their MPs

are you seriously trying to get people to believe that the SNP whose main priority is independence all of a sudden didnt want it and never stood on it ? u do realise that makes you look awfy silly

Malthusian

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

The only way that the SNP will get another referendum will be if Westminster allows it so they would have no choice but to agree to what you call a booby trap.

If Westminster offers a booby trap then they've already caved in. If they were prepared to resist the Scots' desire to be free they wouldn't offer any referendum at all. All the SNP has to do is say "no" to the obvious booby trap and carry on demanding a real referendum on independence until Westminster caves in fully. The desire of Scots to be free won't evaporate because the SNP turned down a booby trap. If the SNP turns down a rigged referendum, the Scots won't abandon the SNP and vote in a "Let Westminster Screw Us Party" with a mandate to accept the booby trap.

I suspect that if Westminster were to say to Sturgeon come and sit down with us and have a serious discussion about the shape of a divorce settlement and if we can agree on that, we can put it to a vote.

Until Scotland is irrevocably committed to independence there is zero point in such discussions as none of it will be binding. You don't discuss divorce settlements before you've decided to divorce. If you say to your husband "I want a divorce, but only if I can have the house, otherwise I'll stay", and your husband doesn't want a divorce, then you're going to remain stuck in the marriage indefinitely.

All they hear at the moment is Sturgeon screeching for a new referendum without any clear indication of what it would actually mean.

A referendum means that Scotland will either be an independent sovereign state or it won't. That is it. That is all it means. Referendums do not determine trade deals, or the political identity of future governments, or the economic tides. Anyone who deliberately pretends not to understand this should expect to lose the referendum, like Remain did in the UK.

People who say "We should only Leave if we can guarantee that everything will be better forever as a result" are making a dishonest case and will be ignored by the electorate, who are not as stupid as they think. They can't guarantee that everything will be better forever if the Scots Remain so they are holding the other side to a standard that they aren't prepared to hold themselves to. There is nothing that loses votes faster than hypocrisy.

elantan

Pete_Zaluver wrote: »

Are you SERIOUSLY trying to suggest that there is enough support for independence?
Despite polls telling you otherwise and despite poor election results (45% of the vote on a 67.3% turnout & even here in this very thread is a nice chart showing 8% of SNP voters would not vote for independence. Work it out & that equates to less than 30% of the Scots electorate at this election wanting independence.).
And you think that gives you a mandate?
By comparison in the 2015GE after your indyref the SNP managed to win more seats (56) than this time around (48).

Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot, the over-exaggerated hype is just plain daft.
Go for it.
Lose again (and there's a bl@@dy good chance that you will) and you've lost all hope of independence for decades.

Are you seriously trying to say that a party that runs for election with a mandate of a referendum several times and constantly wins shouldn't have a referendum ? SERIOUSLY ?

baldelectrician

Pete_Zaluver wrote: »

Are you SERIOUSLY trying to suggest that there is enough support for independence?

It does not matter- what matters is that the SNP have a mandate to have a referendum on the UK's first past the post system

Boris is prime minister because the tories got a majority of seats in the UK, however the Scottish tories made the Scottish general election about independence.
The SNP got more seats and a higher percentage of the votes than the tories in Scotland, the Tories didnt.

You cannot fly numbers about just because you don't like the result- the SNP have a mandate for indyref 2- the tories don't have a mandate against it as the got a lower % of the votes and seats in Scotland

Whether more or less people want another referendum or not is irrelevent- there is a mandate for indy ref 2.

elantan

To be fair the SNP have had a mandate for a while, they had better use it soon or they will suffer in 2021

Thrugelmir

elantan wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to say that a party that runs for election with a mandate of a referendum several times and constantly wins shouldn't have a referendum ? SERIOUSLY ?

Seriously don't treat people as being stupid. Attempting to hood wink the electorate by not discussing or promoting Independence throughout the election is somewhat sly.

elantan

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Seriously don't treat people as being stupid. Attempting to hood wink the electorate by not discussing or promoting Independence throughout the election is somewhat sly.

ermmm I take it you didnt see the SNP during the election then ? cause believe me they spoke about it a fair bit, admittedly no where near as much as the Tories .... but then no one talks about it as much as the Tories

Herzlos

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

I absolutely agree that there should be another referendum but only after a withdrawal agreement has been negotiated. The Scottish people should know exactly what it is that they are voting for. Only then will we see exactly how much support there is for independence.

What if the withdrawal agreement commits Scottish resources in a way that independence would invalidate it? Say, there's something in there about Whisky, beef, salmon or oil? Would we be bound to whatever Westminster agreed on our behalf or would Westminster need to re-negotiate a without Scotland?

Herzlos

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Seriously don't treat people as being stupid. Attempting to hood wink the electorate by not discussing or promoting Independence throughout the election is somewhat sly.

Are you trying to imply that people voted for the SNP without knowing they wanted to Leave?


Or that people didn't vote Tory despite all they were talking about was how a vote for Tory was a vote against another referendum?