The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Tromking

baldelectrician wrote: »

Sounds like an admission that NO government has a majority in a first past the post Westminster system (which needs replaced by PR)

....and of course the right to govern in a multi-party democracy is directly comparable to a binary issue like Scottish independence?:rotfl:

mollycat

Shakethedisease wrote: »

There's only one way to find out. Next year once the next ref is announced. I'm sure you're looking forward to voting in it as much as I am.

Think you will be disappointed at the circa 30% turnout as all the NO voters plus those who just don't care anymore refuse to vote in the SNP,s illegal referendum

Shakethedisease

mollycat wrote: »

Think you will be disappointed at the circa 30% turnout as all the NO voters plus those who just don't care anymore refuse to vote in the SNP,s illegal referendum

When Holyrood passes the Referendum Bill.. and I hate to burst your bubble about this... but that Bill becomes law in Scotland. Legal. No voters staying at home in during a legal, lawful vote is exactly what the Nats want you to do. It makes their job so much easier.

I feel sorry for folks that have bought into this 'illegal' referendum myth. The truth is it's never been tested in court. However when the Referendum Bill becomes Scottish Law then a referendum becomes legal in Scotland. The Uk govt will have to take it to court to prove otherwise and I can't see where their arguement against is going to come from.

Seabee42

I have no issues with people wanting to govern themselves, knock yourselves out politicians tend to same the world over i.e. unimpressive. The need to keep asking though is much more questionable and divisive.

kangoora

What is it about referendums?

The minority, who lost, seem to think it's their god-given right to ignore the democratic result and activate for a 2nd attempt. Their personal opinion matters more than the result of a democratic process involving the entire population. Any excuse seems to justify it, anything they can hang their hat on for the 'good' of scotland/brexit. No matter what the current excuse is everyone knows there would be some 'other' excuse if the current one wasn't good enough.

Personally, if this happens to be granted and the first-time losers win the second time around then I believe it is completely fair for the minority on the second vote to not accept the result and be allowed a 3rd vote (best out of 3) - or is it only when you don't win that you think another referendum on the same topic should be allowed?

Moe_The_Bartender

Shakethedisease wrote: »

When Holyrood passes the Referendum Bill.. and I hate to burst your bubble about this... but that Bill becomes law in Scotland. Legal. No voters staying at home in during a legal, lawful vote is exactly what the Nats want you to do. It makes their job so much easier.

I feel sorry for folks that have bought into this 'illegal' referendum myth. The truth is it's never been tested in court. However when the Referendum Bill becomes Scottish Law then a referendum becomes legal in Scotland. The Uk govt will have to take it to court to prove otherwise and I can't see where their arguement against is going to come from.

Completely wrong analysis. The UK government can simply ignore any such legislation and any legal challenge would have to be made by the Scottish government.

Out of interest, suppose that the forthcoming election were to result in a coalition between Labour and the SNP among others. The SNP would insist on another referendum as the price to be paid.

It is more than possible that any such government would result in the UK remaining in the EU either by revocation of A50 or a remain win in a second referendum.

The SNP have been banging on interminably since 2014 about staying in the EU. If the SNP were to get their referendum, what would they be campaigning on? The UK would be remaining in the EU so if the SNP campaigned for independence, they would also be campaigning to leave the EU.

Seabee42

Given the bribes to the DUP, I would imagine an SNP Labour alliance would have a very high price.

Shakethedisease

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

Completely wrong analysis. The UK government can simply ignore any such legislation and any legal challenge would have to be made by the Scottish government.

The UK Goverment can't ignore Scottish Law anymore than Boris could when prologing parliament or having to sign letters asking for an extension. The Referendum Bill, once passed by Holyrood goes onto the Scottish statue books as law. After which all referendums, whether they are on small issues or massive issues in Scotland, are legal. It'll be up to the UK Govt to challenge because if they don't, any referendum on independence will happen legally and lawfully. No boycotts, no Tory/Labour run councils refusing to organise polling. Holding a referendum itself and recognising the result of said referendum are two entirely different legal things.

Out of interest, suppose that the forthcoming election were to result in a coalition between Labour and the SNP among others. The SNP would insist on another referendum as the price to be paid.

It is more than possible that any such government would result in the UK remaining in the EU either by revocation of A50 or a remain win in a second referendum.

The SNP have been banging on interminably since 2014 about staying in the EU. If the SNP were to get their referendum, what would they be campaigning on? The UK would be remaining in the EU so if the SNP campaigned for independence, they would also be campaigning to leave the EU.

If Brexit doesn't happen or is revoked the SNP have gotten what they wanted. And the last 3 years have opened a fair few eyes regarding Scotland's place in the UK. I guess they'll be campaigning on that.

Moe_The_Bartender

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The UK Goverment can't ignore Scottish Law anymore than Boris could when prologing parliament or having to sign letters asking for an extension. The Referendum Bill, once passed by Holyrood goes onto the Scottish statue books as law. After which all referendums, whether they are on small issues or massive issues in Scotland, are legal. It'll be up to the UK Govt to challenge because if they don't, any referendum on independence will happen legally and lawfully. No boycotts, no Tory/Labour run councils refusing to organise polling. Holding a referendum itself and recognising the result of said referendum are two entirely different legal things.

If Brexit doesn't happen or is revoked the SNP have gotten what they wanted. And the last 3 years have opened a fair few eyes regarding Scotland's place in the UK. I guess they'll be campaigning on that.

You know perfectly well what are devolved matters and what are not. UK constitutional issues are reserved to the UK government. The Scottish government can pass any laws they want but if they fall outside their remit, they are of no legal consequence. Good luck trying your argument with the Supreme Court.

What, incidentally, would the SNP be campaigning on in the scenario I outlined?

Shakethedisease

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

You know perfectly well what are devolved matters and what are not. UK constitutional issues are reserved to the UK government.

Referendum Bills are devolved matters. Referendums aren't reserved.

The Scottish government can pass any laws they want but if they fall outside their remit, they are of no legal consequence.

The Referendum bill currently going through Hoyrood has already been deemed as within remit. Otherwise it wouldn't be going through Holyrood would it.

Good luck trying your argument with the Supreme Court.

An independence referedum which comes off the back of the current Referendum Bill is secondary legislation. Though the other parties are desperately trying to get it changed to Primary legislation. The reason they are trying to get to changed to Primary leglislation is that secondary legislation can't be challenged first off in the UK Supreme Court. It would end up in the Edinburgh Court of Session. The one Joanna Cherry took her cases to against Boris recently.

You've been sucked in with all the newspaper and news programs repeating total bull about 'illegal' referendums. 1) Referendums aren't reserved 2) the UK Supreme Court isn't the first port of call re any challenges if an indy ref is held under secondary legislation ( which incidentally also allows the Scottish govt to set, date, question and franchise ).

What, incidentally, would the SNP be campaigning on in the scenario I outlined?

Independence in Europe as they always do. Scotland has a fair proportion of the EU's fishing grounds. I daresay once independence is voted for there'll be a stampede to get Scotland signed and sealed as an EU member.