The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Arklight

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Nicola starting to name dates. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/may/26/european-elections-2019-results-eu-election-parliament-brexit-party-farage-tories-may-live

Scotland should hold a second independence referendum next year, the SNP leader, Nicola Sturgeon, says. with no intention of doing anything of the sort. The country’s First Minister made the comments on a visit to Dublin, safely away from the Nationalist fanbase in the grimmer bits of Scotland she doesn't go to much anymore., where she said the “latter half” of 2020 would be the “right time” for a new poll. "Because quite frankly, actual Nationalists who really want independence to happen, rather than to further a political career, are starting to scare me so hopefully this will shut them up for a bit."

Good finally to see things starting to move after 3 years of holding. Even if Arklight is scared stiff of it all. Ian Blackford apparently saying the same thing on radio earlier too.

Fixed that for you.

Moby

Arklight wrote: »

Are they? No one in England can vote for the SNP so you have to look for England's version, which is currently the Brexit Party. English people who vote Brexit are separatist, an uncomfortable alliance of left and right wingers, and would be quite happy to be separate from Scotland as well as the EU. All part of a union they consider to be defunct and holding them back.

Based on that paradigm, Scottish voting looks very similar to England's, at least in outlook.

Of course the one thing they have in common is that neither of them are a majority, or will get to be independent of anything. No matter how excited Shakey gets, or how many brave tartan tweets start emanating from Bath.

There are a lot of contradictions around in politics, not least in Scotland. The SNP are a nationalist party claiming to be outward looking and internationalist. A far as I can see their 'beef' is with Westminster as a distant, uninterested institution; while they see the EU in a totally different way. They see the EU as an institution that looks after small states and Ireland's growth in GDP since joining is cited as an example. The SNP have won the argument over who speaks best for Scotlands interests and remaining in the EU is a huge part of that. That is why Scotland is different from the rUK.

The Labour Party held that role for many years and now seems finished as a political force in Scotland, partly because we were tainted with leading the 'Better Together' campaign. The SNP will have no purpose after independence and will then presumably split into left right factions.

Decisions about personal identity and who looks after your interests the best are not made on accountants spreadsheets. The continual repeating of the inequity of the Barnett formula by English Nationalists only brings Scottish independence nearer. You can argue the toss about territorial waters, fishing rights, oil blah blah....it changes nothing. Look at Ireland as the best example. They wanted independence from the British Empire at its height and they got it. How many Irish people do you talk to who want to return to being part of the UK. I don't know any!

Arklight

Moby wrote: »

There are a lot of contradictions around in politics, not least in Scotland. The SNP are a nationalist party claiming to be outward looking and internationalist. A far as I can see their 'beef' is with Westminster as a distant, uninterested institution; while they see the EU in a totally different way. They see the EU as an institution that looks after small states and Ireland's growth in GDP since joining is cited as an example. The SNP have won the argument over who speaks best for Scotlands interests and remaining in the EU is a huge part of that. That is why Scotland is different from the rUK.

The Labour Party held that role for many years and now seems finished as a political force in Scotland, partly because we were tainted with leading the 'Better Together' campaign. The SNP will have no purpose after independence and will then presumably split into left right factions.

Decisions about personal identity and who looks after your interests the best are not made on accountants spreadsheets. The continual repeating of the inequity of the Barnett formula by English Nationalists only brings Scottish independence nearer. You can argue the toss about territorial waters, fishing rights, oil blah blah....it changes nothing. Look at Ireland as the best example. They wanted independence from the British Empire at its height and they got it. How many Irish people do you talk to who want to return to being part of the UK. I don't know any!

But Ireland was under the boot of the British Empire, whereas the Scots were wearing it. That's where Scotland and Ireland differ to a large extent. The anti-British grievance doesn't quite fill enough seats to flip a vote for independence because a majority (if only a small one) of Scots identify as British.

As I've said before, if I were Scottish I would want independence. It would be painful, difficult, and take a long time to get right. But it would be the first badly needed step in draining the poison that has divided Scotland as a nation for hundreds of years. Scottish people need to start blaming themselves for their own failings not the English. The childish grievance of the Nationalists need to be put to bed, if only by punishing them by giving them what they want.

It however, is not going to happen. Another vote won't be authorised by the British government, an illegal vote won't be recognised, either internationally, by the EU, or by the huge numbers of Scots who are unionist.

If Nicola Sturgeon wanted to start some kind of Scottish Civil war that will end with her in prison for treason, and the unionists like a displaced minority, then that could happen. But she clearly doesn't. So there'll be calls for independence, calls for votes, calls for calls for votes, and Shaky banging away on her keyboard until it wears out.

Shakethedisease

Arklight wrote: »

But Ireland was under the boot of the British Empire, whereas the Scots were wearing it. That's where Scotland and Ireland differ to a large extent. The anti-British grievance doesn't quite fill enough seats to flip a vote for independence because a majority (if only a small one) of Scots identify as British.

As I've said before, if I were Scottish I would want independence. It would be painful, difficult, and take a long time to get right. But it would be the first badly needed step in draining the poison that has divided Scotland as a nation for hundreds of years. Scottish people need to start blaming themselves for their own failings not the English. The childish grievance of the Nationalists need to be put to bed, if only by punishing them by giving them what they want.

It however, is not going to happen. Another vote won't be authorised by the British government, an illegal vote won't be recognised, either internationally, by the EU, or by the huge numbers of Scots who are unionist.

If Nicola Sturgeon wanted to start some kind of Scottish Civil war that will end with her in prison for treason, and the unionists like a displaced minority, then that could happen. But she clearly doesn't. So there'll be calls for independence, calls for votes, calls for calls for votes, and Shaky banging away on her keyboard until it wears out.

It's very simple. Since the day after the Brexit referendum vote the SNP has been 100% consistent. Should Scotland look set to be taken out of the Single Market/EU despite voting to remain in them.. then Scotland will have a choice to make :-


1) To stay in a Brexited UK.
2) To vote for independence and persue Single Market membership either as a full member of the EU or via EFTA/EEA.

Anything else and all debate is window dressing. Every last bit of it, polls, statitics, turnout for elections, % of leave/remain voters, EU elections, endless speculation. All of it. The choice has always been between 1 or 2 above. Nicola Sturgeon/SNP/current Scottish Govt have been resolute for a full three years that one way or another, the Scottish electorate will be given this choice. Things are starting to move into gear now re legislation in Holyrood and narratives from the SNP and wider independence advocates.

Telling yourselves over and over that Scotland won't be 'allowed' this choice only serves to highlight the very problem at the heart of this collection of 'equal nations'. It's very unlikely that there will be a 2nd indy ref in the nature of the first one. But all Nicola Sturgeon has to do is make sure there IS a vote Scotland wide. Even if she has to dissolve the current Scottish Govt to do so.

1) Stay in Brexited UK with Johnson/Gove/Hunt/? as PM
2) Leave the UK and persue Single Market membership via full EU membership or EFTA/EEA

For better or worse Scottish voters will be afforded the oppotunity to vote and make their wishes clear. It doesn't matter what the vote is actually called.. Indy ref2/Scottish GE/Consultation with Scottish voters.. it's going to happen. You should resign yourself to this fact.

an illegal vote won't be recognised, either internationally, by the EU,

Any vote will be perfectly legal. And I don't know if you've noticed but Nicola Strugeon is currently doing the EU rounds, she's in Ireland at the mo, no doubt drumming up support. If it's between Johnson and her I have no qulams over who the EU are likely to be most sympathetic to in a few months time. You're living in the past.

Sapphire

I now think Scotland should be independent if it so much wants to be, and if the Scots don't want to be part of the UK. At the time of the vote, I had the opposite view, and was hoping very much they would stay, since I'd always admired the Scots and liked their spirit.

However, if they want to stand on their own feet, feel more allegiance to an EU aspiring to empire run by unelected bureaucrats, and also that they have more in common with it than with the UK (despite their hundreds of years of close history linked to the UK), then so be it. They will just have to obtain their subsidies from the EU rather than the UK, join the Euro and so on, and accept all EU 'rules' and dictats in future (good luck with that).

Arklight

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It's very simple. Since the day after the Brexit referendum vote the SNP has been 100% consistent. Should Scotland look set to be taken out of the Single Market/EU despite voting to remain in them.. then Scotland will have a choice to make :-


1) To stay in a Brexited UK.
2) To vote for independence and persue Single Market membership either as a full member of the EU or via EFTA/EEA.

Anything else and all debate is window dressing. Every last bit of it, polls, statitics, turnout for elections, % of leave/remain voters, EU elections, endless speculation. All of it. The choice has always been between 1 or 2 above. Nicola Sturgeon/SNP/current Scottish Govt have been resolute for a full three years that one way or another, the Scottish electorate will be given this choice. Things are starting to move into gear now re legislation in Holyrood and narratives from the SNP and wider independence advocates.

Telling yourselves over and over that Scotland won't be 'allowed' this choice only serves to highlight the very problem at the heart of this collection of 'equal nations'. It's very unlikely that there will be a 2nd indy ref in the nature of the first one. But all Nicola Sturgeon has to do is make sure there IS a vote Scotland wide. Even if she has to dissolve the current Scottish Govt to do so.

1) Stay in Brexited UK with Johnson/Gove/Hunt/? as PM
2) Leave the UK and persue Single Market membership via full EU membership or EFTA/EEA

For better or worse Scottish voters will be afforded the oppotunity to vote and make their wishes clear. It doesn't matter what the vote is actually called.. Indy ref2/Scottish GE/Consultation with Scottish voters.. it's going to happen. You should resign yourself to this fact.
Any vote will be perfectly legal. And I don't know if you've noticed but Nicola Strugeon is currently doing the EU rounds, she's in Ireland at the mo, no doubt drumming up support. If it's between Johnson and her I have no qulams over who the EU are likely to be most sympathetic to in a few months time. You're living in the past.

Shakey, Scotland isn't an "equal nation". It's titchy compared to England. Very over-represented in Parliament, but not in any way equal.

You seem to think your countrymen are unaware of this and when they find out they'll all vote to leave.

Why?

Arklight

Sapphire wrote: »

I now think Scotland should be independent if it so much wants to be, and if the Scots don't want to be part of the UK. At the time of the vote, I had the opposite view, and was hoping very much they would stay, since I'd always admired the Scots and liked their spirit.

However, if they want to stand on their own feet, feel more allegiance to an EU aspiring to empire run by unelected bureaucrats, and also that they have more in common with it than with the UK (despite their hundreds of years of close history linked to the UK), then so be it. They will just have to obtain their subsidies from the EU rather than the UK, join the Euro and so on, and accept all EU 'rules' and dictats in future (good luck with that).

And this also is the inherent problem that the Nats are tying themselves into knots to avoid talking about. Scottish Independence has little to do with being independent, and a lot to do with being independent from England and Wales.

While some Scots feel no affinity at all with their English oppressors, they also need to carry the argument to the rest who would be making the choice to permanently and irreversibly, sever ties with what a great many of them consider to be, part of the country in which they live, in favour of the EU.

If Brexit happens that could mean that Scots literally are voting themselves out of being able live or work in England and Wales. This could be much more a downside than residing within the EU and having access to a lot of countries that realistically most native monolingual English speakers have no realistic chance of settling in anyway.

Shakey won't answer any of these points of course. Because Indy is all but inevitable now because blah blah polls and Boris Johnson and yadd yadda will happen...

Shakethedisease

Arklight wrote: »

Shakey, Scotland isn't an "equal nation". It's titchy compared to England. Very over-represented in Parliament, but not in any way equal.

You seem to think your countrymen are unaware of this and when they find out they'll all vote to leave.

Why?

I was quoting BetterTogether/No Thanks from the last independence referendum who kept on and on about Scotland being an 'equal partner'. Do try and keep up. Sheesh.

Shakethedisease

Arklight wrote: »

If Brexit happens that could mean that Scots literally are voting themselves out of being able live or work in England and Wales. This could be much more a downside than residing within the EU and having access to a lot of countries that realistically most native monolingual English speakers have no realistic chance of settling in anyway.

Shakey won't answer any of these points of course. Because Indy is all but inevitable now because blah blah polls and Boris Johnson and yadd yadda will happen...

Scotland will have exactly the same relationship with England and Wales that everyone else in the EU and or Single Market will have in future. It's not a difficult question to answer.

I really do feel a bit frightened by narratives such as yours that can't see past England and Wales being the center of the universe we all revolve round. England and Wales cutting themselves off from the entirety of the EU/Scotland in terms of living, residing, working and trade is going to cause England and Wales some pretty catastrophic problems.

I seriously doubt there's going to be a queue of Scots or any other nation in the EU for that matter all desperately trying to live and work in what is going to become an insolationist, right wing, hostile environment backwater with acute medical shortages and massive unemployment. Please wake up. People will be desperately trying to get out, not in to England and Wales.

Don't you worry about Scotland. You'll have your own problems.

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Scotland will have exactly the same relationship with England and Wales that everyone else in the EU and or Single Market will have in future. It's not a difficult question to answer.

I really do feel a bit frightened by narratives such as yours that can't see past England and Wales being the center of the universe we all revolve round. England and Wales cutting themselves off from the entirety of the EU/Scotland in terms of living, residing, working and trade is going to cause England and Wales some pretty catastrophic problems.

I seriously doubt there's going to be a queue of Scots or any other nation in the EU for that matter all desperately trying to live and work in what is going to become an isolationist, right wing, hostile environment backwater with acute medical shortages and massive unemployment. Please wake up. People will be desperately trying to get out, not in to England and Wales.

Don't you worry about Scotland. You'll have your own problems.

Anyone would think that its England that has issues in attracting inward immigration. The very idea that an increasingly parochial Scotland with its terrible climate would somehow become a more attractive proposition than the cultural and economic powerhouse that is England is for the birds. As soon as you've removed any vestiges of the English/British from Scottish public life, you'll turn on everyone else, that's what petty nationalists do.
It's all immaterial of course, Scots love voting for the SNP and its independence agenda except when it really matters, that being in a referendum.