The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

Arklight wrote: »

Scotland can be independent. However, the Yes campaign needs to show the same kind of maturity and honesty about the deficits of leaving that is also completely absent from the Brexit movement in England.

There isn't a great deal of difference *between Shakey's anti Englishness and the Brexit people's anti EU stance.

Both movements fail to understand that people won't leave at any cost, and they will do anything to conceal there being any cost.

As far as I'm concerned, you are all rowing the same boat.

* Have you any proof of this ? You're name calling like a 10 year old schoolboy again.

Anyway the Referendums bill has been published. It covers the rules for any and all referendums forthwith held in Scotland but doesn't mention the independence word. Hence it's been deemed within Holyrood competence by the Presiding Officer and the Lord Advocate.

Also allows for 16-17 years olds and EU citizens to vote regardless of Brexit. It allows for a great deal of flexibility going forward and I expect that if a Section 30 is refused ( which it will, but that in itself will further indy support ).. the question asked will simply be reworded to fall legally within Holyrood competencies ie 'Should the Scottish Govt approach the UK Govt with a view to ' etc. While the outright independence question may or may not fall under Holyrood's competency. The Scottish Govt asking the Scottish Electorate for an opinion on what to do next certainly does fall within it.

So yes, there's going to be a Scottish vote soon on the choice between staying in a Brexit UK, or leaving and EU/Single Market/EFTA.

https://www.parliament.scot/S5_Bills/Referendums%20(Scotland)%20Bill/SPBill46S052019.pdf

antrobus

Shakethedisease wrote: »

,,,


Anyway the Referendums bill has been published. It covers the rules for any and all referendums forthwith held in Scotland but doesn't mention the independence word. Hence it's been deemed within Holyrood competence by the Presiding Officer and the Lord Advocate.

,,,

Well yes, Holyrood can hold referendums on any issue it likes within its "competence". However, the matter of the:UK constitution is not within its "competence", so that's neither here nor there as far as any independence referendum is concerned.

What subjects do the SNP propose will be decided by referendums? MSPs salaries? Tax rates?

antrobus

Shakethedisease wrote: »

...

So yes, there's going to be a Scottish vote soon on the choice between staying in a Brexit UK, or leaving and EU/Single Market/EFTA.

...

The referendums bill says no such thing. It's an "An Act of the Scottish Parliament to make provision for the holding of referendums throughout Scotland; to make provision about such referendums and other referendums held under Acts of the Scottish Parliament."

The Scottish Parliament lacks the power to pass any acts on the subjects of "staying in a Brexit UK, or leaving and EU/Single Market/EFTA", so the bill, even if enacted, does not in any way permit a referendum on those issues.

Actually I'm rather disappointed by the Referendums Bill, The way Nicola was babbling about it, I got the impression that the Bill was going to set out a specific timetable for a symbolic vote on the issue of independence etc. It turns out to be nothing more than a piece of routine admin.

Bit of a damp squib or a massive cop out, if you ask me.

LHW99

Also allows for 16-17 years olds and EU citizens to vote regardless of Brexit.

So if the UK doesn't leave the EU, us English can all vote in the referendums?
Not sure if that would make independence more likely or not

Enterprise_1701C

LHW99 wrote: »

So if the UK doesn't leave the EU, us English can all vote in the referendums?
Not sure if that would make independence more likely or not

I suspect it would make it a lot more likely. However, I don't think it would be 'allowed' same way we cannot vote on 'Scottish' things and they complain when we don't let them vote on english things.

Shakethedisease

antrobus wrote: »

The referendums bill says no such thing. It's an "An Act of the Scottish Parliament to make provision for the holding of referendums throughout Scotland; to make provision about such referendums and other referendums held under Acts of the Scottish Parliament."

The Scottish Parliament lacks the power to pass any acts on the subjects of "staying in a Brexit UK, or leaving and EU/Single Market/EFTA", so the bill, even if enacted, does not in any way permit a referendum on those issues.

Actually I'm rather disappointed by the Referendums Bill, The way Nicola was babbling about it, I got the impression that the Bill was going to set out a specific timetable for a symbolic vote on the issue of independence etc. It turns out to be nothing more than a piece of routine admin.

Bit of a damp squib or a massive cop out, if you ask me.

You didn't read my post. I said any and all future referendums.


The point I was making re EFTA etc was on my earlier posts about 'Scots having a say' 'a choice' to make ie In other words A vote not neccesarily on the outright independence question but a choice nonetheless. This bill makes it possible, 16 -17 year olds/EU citizens the lot.

There's many more routes than a Section 30 from Westminster that's for sure. But she'll need to harness the powerlessness Scots feel over not having a say in their own future or having Johnson/Gove or McVey tell them no.. and for that, a Section 30 has to be refused first.

Tromking

Another example of 'Celtic privilege' as regards funding.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48438132

If situations like this were reversed, Scottish independence would be a sinch.

Shakethedisease

antrobus wrote: »

Actually I'm rather disappointed by the Referendums Bill, The way Nicola was babbling about it, I got the impression that the Bill was going to set out a specific timetable for a symbolic vote on the issue of independence etc. It turns out to be nothing more than a piece of routine admin.

Bit of a damp squib or a massive cop out, if you ask me.

It's turned out to be an actual piece of legal genius. It is as you say a 'general' framework for referendums in Scotland. However there were a couple of Scottish legal beagle's oohing and aahing over it yesterday because 1) Any referendum called can be greatly accelerated and only needs a single vote in the Scottish Parliament.

At its heart, the Bill gives Scottish ministers the power to call a referendum, set a question and choose a date – subject to a single positive vote in the Scottish Parliament. To establish the legal basis for a poll under this new dispensation, there need be no tortured legislative process, no three stages of committee hearings and votes in Holyrood. The process is streamlined

and secondly.

It has been widely assumed that UK ministers would try the same trick with a future Independence Referendum Bill, using their powers in section 33 of the Scotland Act to fast-track their legal challenge to any Bill to London ( Supreme Court )

.. but it won't be since although the Referendums Bill as a framework is primary Holyrood legislation, any referendum stemming from it isn't.

In contrast with its treatment of primary Holyrood legislation, the Scotland Act gives the UK Government no fast track to the Supreme Court to challenge decisions of the Scottish Government. And this is precisely what ordering a second independence referendum poll under the Referendums (Scotland) Bill would amount to.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17672217.indyref2-sturgeons-clever-plan-will-wrongfoot-the-uk-government/?fbclid=IwAR1nB7kYabN8l_AQtQKUg1N11rR8-fQlYNALH3VgiQblc2FhJyfrY-i02u8

Clever ! Also I see Tory Leader candidates are all trying to outdo each other saying No to a second indy ref. What a load of idiots. Javid has been trending all over social media with people laughing at him. Aww lol.

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Clever ! Also I see Tory Leader candidates are all trying to outdo each other saying No to a second indy ref. What a load of idiots. Javid has been trending all over social media with people laughing at him. Aww lol.

The only people laughing at him will be those inhabiting your echo chamber. Most Scots will agree with him.

Arklight

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It's turned out to be an actual piece of legal genius. It is as you say a 'general' framework for referendums in Scotland. However there were a couple of Scottish legal beagle's oohing and aahing over it yesterday because 1) Any referendum called can be greatly accelerated and only needs a single vote in the Scottish Parliament.
and secondly. .. but it won't be since although the Referendums Bill as a framework is primary Holyrood legislation, any referendum stemming from it isn't.

Clever ! Also I see Tory Leader candidates are all trying to outdo each other saying No to a second indy ref. What a load of idiots. Javid has been trending all over social media with people laughing at him. Aww lol.

Yes the Nat mob is out in force. Occasionally people try and disagree with them on social media.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/30/sajid-javid-trolled-entire-nation-scotland-referendum-snub-9737222/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Duncan Laing
We know you want to keep suckling on mummy's tit but Daddy's saying "Stand up and be a MAN you little p***k !"

I feel sorry for the majority of people in Scotland who just want to get on with their lives and their vote in the recent referendum to be respected without being threatened and abused by thugs.