The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Arklight

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I'm not taking the polls in isolation. I don't think they matter a jot until it gets close to any 'vote'. They're certainly good for winding up folks in here though on occasion and they do provide little snapshots of current opinion.

But we're not governed via polls, we do our deciding via the ballot box. It seems though, that Scotland isn't to be allowed near the ballot box. Now that's a big problem isn't it, if that's what the Scottish electorate voted for at the ballot box. Don't you agree ?A big problem indeed for a so called "Union".


* from same article posted above.

You just had a referendum. Scotland hasn't "been denied" a chance at the ballot box. A minority of people who can't accept they lost have been denied the chance to have endless referendums on the off-chance they finally get the result they want.

Shakethedisease

Arklight wrote: »

You just had a referendum. Scotland hasn't "been denied" a chance at the ballot box. A minority of people who can't accept they lost have been denied the chance to have endless referendums on the off-chance they finally get the result they want.

Davidson and Mundell are both proclaiming that the current and any future PM should veto any return to the ballot box for an indeterminate length of time... Even if that's what the Scottish electorate vote for, and there's a majority of Scottish constituency MP's and MSP's returned on a mandate to do exactly that ?


That's not a Union I'm afraid. That's a majority of English MP's denying the Scottish electorate what they vote for. It's a situation that cannot stay unresolved for very long. It is a denial.

I imagine Nicola Sturgeon and the wider indy base are happy enough for now to have Theresa/Ruth and David say No repeatedly as it galvanises already strenghtening support. But Nicola, the SNP, Remain and indy folks are working to a tight schedule this time round given Brexit. You can rest assured the very last thing any of them will abide by is Tory MP's in England saying No to Scotland's electorate having a say. It's what they stand for after all.

Arklight

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Davidson and Mundell are both proclaiming that the current and any future PM should veto any return to the ballot box for an indeterminate length of time... Even if that's what the Scottish electorate vote for, and there's a majority of Scottish constituency MP's and MSP's returned on a mandate to do exactly that ?


That's not a Union I'm afraid. That's a majority of English MP's denying the Scottish electorate what they vote for. It's a situation that cannot stay unresolved for very long. It is a denial.

I imagine Nicola Sturgeon and the wider indy base are happy enough for now to have Theresa/Ruth and David say No repeatedly as it galvanises already strenghtening support. But Nicola, the SNP, Remain and indy folks are working to a tight schedule this time round given Brexit. You can rest assured the very last thing any of them will abide by is Tory MP's in England saying No to Scotland's electorate having a say. It's what they stand for after all.

And yet here you are. Still part of the UK. The referendum you just had still lost, and still no chance whatsoever of another one in your lifetime.

:eek:

Shakethedisease

Arklight wrote: »

And yet here you are. Still part of the UK. The referendum you just had still lost, and still no chance whatsoever of another one in your lifetime.

:eek:

I agree, there will be no second indy ref, not like the last one. Not least because the Tories and other powers that be are terrified they'll lose it. But I've been saying that for over 2 years here now.

However, the principle that in theory Scotland's voters could elect 59 pro indy MP's and a majority of pro indy MSP's. Only to be repeatedly told No to even asking a question by MPs not even in the same nation. Isn't sustainable. Yet this is exactly what Ruth Davidson and David Mundell have been saying the last few days.


Voters in Scotland aren't going to be happy voting for repeated mandates for long. How many are we expected to vote for exactly before a vote is allowed ? Do tell.

Arklight

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I agree, there will be no second indy ref, not like the last one. Not least because the Tories and other powers that be are terrified they'll lose it. But I've been saying that for over 2 years here now.

However, the principle that in theory Scotland's voters could elect 59 pro indy MP's and a majority of pro indy MSP's. Only to be repeatedly told No to even asking a question by MPs not even in the same nation. Isn't sustainable. Yet this is exactly what Ruth Davidson and David Mundell have been saying the last few days.


Voters in Scotland aren't going to be happy voting for repeated mandates for long. How many are we expected to vote for exactly before a vote is allowed ? Do tell.

I would be more inclined to think this scenario were plausible if you'd stop voting for Tory MPs.

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I agree, there will be no second indy ref, not like the last one. Not least because the Tories and other powers that be are terrified they'll lose it. But I've been saying that for over 2 years here now.

However, the principle that in theory Scotland's voters could elect 59 pro indy MP's and a majority of pro indy MSP's. Only to be repeatedly told No to even asking a question by MPs not even in the same nation. Isn't sustainable. Yet this is exactly what Ruth Davidson and David Mundell have been saying the last few days.


Voters in Scotland aren't going to be happy voting for repeated mandates for long. How many are we expected to vote for exactly before a vote is allowed ? Do tell.

The SNP winning elections with a mandate for another referendum does not mean that the majority of Scots want another referendum.
The barrier to another indyref is not Westminster, it’s other Scots.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

The SNP winning elections with a mandate for another referendum does not mean that the majority of Scots want another referendum.

By what other measure other than votes and mandates do you measure 'the will of the people' ? Can you expand ? Or do you expect all political parties to gain 50% of the vote before taking office in Westminster oe elsewhere in order to enact the policies it was voted in on ?

The barrier to another indyref is not Westminster, it’s other Scots.

The barrier to another indyref is Westminster and the current Tory party. Holyrood has already voted and passed the primary legislation to enact another independence referendum. The Scottish electorate have spoken via their elected representatives both in Edinburgh and in Westminster. Many so blinded by the fact it's the SNP cannot see the wood for the trees. The SNP didn't get where they are by magic.

Scales falling from eyes and writing on the wall even in the FT and the Telegraph in recent days. Changed times.

The game-changer, however, is that Brexit has forced on the Scots a choice they neither asked for nor wanted...


Post-Brexit, Scotland has no option but to choose. Sticking with England means tearing itself out of Europe. Preserving a strong relationship with the rest of Europe demands that it leaves the UK. At the whim of the English Tory party, Scots have been told to surrender an identity. They can no longer be at once Scottish, British and European.

https://www.ft.com/content/a05dd0ce-6c10-11e9-80c7-60ee53e6681d

Is an independent Scotland now inevitable? I'm beginning to believe it might be.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/05/01/independent-scotland-now-inevitable-beginning-believe-might/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

Shakethedisease

Arklight wrote: »

I would be more inclined to think this scenario were plausible if you'd stop voting for Tory MPs.

It's probably more accurate to think of them as 'unionist' MPs to be honest. In policy terms, sadly they have nothing beyond that now in Scotland and election leaflets rarely if ever contain the Conservative party name. Oh no, these days people are being urged to vote for 'Ruth Davidson's candidate 'insert name'. I kid you not.

NCC-1701

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It's probably more accurate to think of them as 'unionist' MPs to be honest. In policy terms, sadly they have nothing beyond that now in Scotland and election leaflets rarely if ever contain the Conservative party name. Oh no, these days people are being urged to vote for 'Ruth Davidson's candidate 'insert name'. I kid you not.

Kidding or not given your history on the truth you'll have no trouble supplying a selection of leaflets evidence that prove what you are saying is true. BTW I've not seen any leaflets 'these days'.

Shakethedisease

NCC-1701 wrote: »

Kidding or not given your history on the truth you'll have no trouble supplying a selection of leaflets evidence that prove what you are saying is true. BTW I've not seen any leaflets 'these days'.

Sure...Hope the images arent too big though.








Saw on Reddit the other day there are more of these going out.. almost like they expect a General Election soon. You can step down now. You were wrong and these leaflets touting 'Ruth Davidson's Candidate' 1) Do exist and 2 ) Have been previously and are currently being distributed.


It's amusing and comes across as a little desperate to see them trying to downplay their own party but there you go. Tory no more.. and sounding increasingly like an advert for an old 70's or 80's BBC game show. Even die hard unionist columnists are starting to mull over the Scottish Tories having to disown the UK party. They're terrified that Boris will be installed as leader.

JENNY HJUL: The time may have come for the Conservatives in Scotland to ‘break free’ of their London base


Her efforts to unite moderate Scots against an independence referendum they don’t want and a left-leaning SNP that has neglected its domestic duties could see her rise to the pinnacles of power in Scotland. Except for one thing: Boris Johnson.

Even a politician of Davidson’s obvious skills may find it impossible to avoid being tarnished by association with the Tory elitism Johnson represents. The time then may have come for the Conservatives in Scotland to break free of their London base.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/jenny-hjul/882475/jenny-hjul-the-time-may-have-come-for-the-conservatives-in-scotland-to-break-free-of-their-london-base/