Accident at nursery

Andypandyboy

theoretica wrote: »

Eh? Expectation on fathers rather than mothers still adds up to expectation on the couple.

It was the mothers we were discussing at that point.;)

theoretica

Andypandyboy wrote: »

It was the mothers we were discussing at that point.;)

Yes, we were. And pressure via the father is a strong route to pressure on the mother.

FBaby

The fact that schools still get it wrong despite recommendations does show that is it is still societal expectations that mothers are the main carers, working or not.

Andypandyboy

theoretica wrote: »

Yes, we were. And pressure via the father is a strong route to pressure on the mother.

So you are saying that when you had a child you gave conisderation to to what you believed societal expectation was ahead of your own circumstances? Either consciously or subconciously.

FBaby wrote: »

The fact that schools still get it wrong despite recommendations does show that is it is still societal expectations that mothers are the main carers, working or not.

It may show that or it may be that it is the norm and it is the norm from choice if there is no financial aspect to the choice. Years ago you would have been right I am sure, but today all women have a choice how to organise care for their children within the parameters of personal circumstance.

It may also show that it is simply a mistake by the school....

theoretica

Andypandyboy wrote: »

, but today all women have a choice how to organise care for their children within the parameters of personal circumstance.

But women have to make the choice and do the organising?

Andypandyboy

theoretica wrote: »

But women have to make the choice and do the organising?

I was referring to the choice of returning to work or not, full time or part time....or would you prefer that wasn't her personal choice?;)

theoretica

Andypandyboy wrote: »

I was referring to the choice of returning to work or not, full time or part time....or would you prefer that wasn't her personal choice?;)

Of course it isn't her personal choice alone, except for a single parent - if both father and mother made personal and individual choice to stay home with the baby that wouldn't work money-wise for most families. Or are you subconciously assuming father has already decided to return to work leaving mother to make her decision second?

pigpen

theoretica wrote: »

Of course it isn't her personal choice alone, except for a single parent - if both father and mother made personal and individual choice to stay home with the baby that wouldn't work money-wise for most families. Or are you subconciously assuming father has already decided to return to work leaving mother to make her decision second?

Assuming the father took any time off in the first place!! Even with legal paternity leave he still went to work regardless of my need.

I know in my case I was at home with the children from the day they were born.. he went to work the day I got home from hospital.. unless he had taken annual leave or it was a compulsory holiday. There was no decision to be made.

Andypandyboy

theoretica wrote: »

Of course it isn't her personal choice alone, except for a single parent - if both father and mother made personal and individual choice to stay home with the baby that wouldn't work money-wise for most families. Or are you subconciously assuming father has already decided to return to work leaving mother to make her decision second?

I said within the paramenters of personal circumstance.

All along I have said that childcare should be a family decision, so, no, I am not making that assumption.

Looked from the other angle however, both parents can make the individual choice to return to work and organise paid for child care. It is that aspect which this thread was primarily discussing.

onlyroz

Andypandyboy wrote: »

So you are saying that when you had a child you gave conisderation to to what you believed societal expectation was ahead of your own circumstances? Either consciously or subconciously.

Attitudes are gradually changing but I do think that assumptions are still made that if one career is to be sacrificed then it will be the mothers.

I do know of some men who are bucking the societal norm. I work with a man who is relatively senior who took 6 months extended parental leave (I think his wife is a barrister or similar and earns considerably more than him). A few eyebrows were raised but nobody objected and it didn't impact his job any more than it would have impacted a woman who took a 6-month break.

I know of another man who took his wife's surname upon marriage - now that definitely did raise eyebrows right across the board and the poor man was constantly expected to justify his decision.

I know of a few men who asked to go down to 4 days a week. They were told that they could do this but would have to take a demotion. Now I know of at least two women who won constructive dismissal cases against their employer because their request for a flexible arrangement wasn't taken seriously enough - and so I think that these men who asked for the same thing would have been able to successfully win an employment tribunal if they'd been willing to take the issue further.