Nice People Thread No. 15, a Cyber Summer

Doozergirl

zagubov wrote: »

We can't change it so let's see what's the best way forward.

I'd be amazed if I've lasted 11 NP threads without boring everybody in listening distance to death with my need for a radically federal Britain with a written constitution, a massively stronger relationship with Europe than America, a network of parliamentary ombudsmen to replace the "House of Lords", endless referenda with voting booths in every library or via ATMs, a parliament and government for England, and a UK parliament relocated to the north or in the Isle of Man, and establishment of a Good Samaritan law and an opting-out organ donation system. Oh and Martin Lewis and the Consumer Association to become a government department.:beer:

Does anybody agree with me and my rants? Not bl00dy likely! We've all got diffeent politics. I just delete the posts later if people take offence and apologise.;)

Let's do parliament in Hull. Four days a month!

zagubov

Both this and the Scottish referendum were accompanied by utterly despicable media campaigns. It was so bad in 2014 that it raised the Yes vote from 30 to 45% out of sheer voter outrage at the media coverage.

In this referendum, both sides were well-covered in the media. Neither side's campaign covered themselves with glory, but the repeat "Project Fear" was just galling to watch again. I'm not commenting on the gullibility of the voters or the objective merits of each side's core arguments, and I doubt anybody here is. The presentation of the two sides cases was just shocking.

For the vote to be so close, there's no need for criticism of either side's voters or for either side to take offence. I think what it did do was highlight the fault lines in the UK. London, where I live, has a a very obvious interest in Remain. Scotland and Northern Ireland have very distinctive identities with well-defied takes on international integration. But England outside London seems to me to be the missing link in the British political equation.

Nobody speaks for it; its national identity has been stolen/usurped by London which nonetheless doesn't really advocate for it or address its problems and fears, or in any other way lend it a voice. I'm not surprised the northern urban belt have voted differently. I hope this works out well for them (and the rest of us).:beer:

zagubov

Doozergirl wrote: »

Let's do parliament in Hull. Four days a month!

That's probably not a bad place to have it. Or build a capital territory near it. Actually, why have a capital on land that's used for something else?

CKhalvashi

SingleSue wrote: »

Youngest is absolutely devastated and angry, his plans for his future he now feels are in tatters as he was relying on the ability to have free movement across Europe.

I don't think we're going to lose FoM at all. If we loudly leave the EU, I'm sure we'll remain a member of the EEA and EFTA whatever anyone says.

I'm probably remaining more hopeful than I should though, as I'll potentially be finished if not. I'd either lose rights to trade in the EU or in the UK, and I know which is the market I'd choose to lose.

James is annoyed as his sector relies on EU supported and funded projects that are now all up in the air.

Lets hope the government makes the funding up. It's perfectly possible that it will be the case, as a lot of enterprise zones (which the government is supportive of) are EU funded, as are other areas the government is generally happy with.

vivatifosi

My frustration is also with the campaign rather than most of those that voted out. I can't believe that we've been cast into turmoil by such a thin margin.

However more importantly, I can't believe that when I live in a country where you have adverts showing a woman shampooing her eyes with the caption Do not shampoo your eyes... that at the same time BOTH sides were allowed to talk such complete and utter bollox and got away with it.

From the £350m, to the it will all go onto the NHS, to the lies about immigration, to the oh we c an just join EFTA.

I fully respect Michaels et als well reasoned views, but am royally !!!!ed off with the lies.

My frustration is nothing compared to that which will be felt by those who voted out on such grounds when they realise they've been sold a total pack of lies and their lives are not going to get any better.

I am from the working class myself and know that people feel utterly disposessed. Their kids go to school where English is the second language, you really can't get a doctor's appt for two weeks and wages have been totally pushed down. Life On minimum wage or close to it when housing is so expensive is awful and people genuinely don't feel we are all in it together. It is eight years since the global recession started and MANY people don't think that life has got any better in that time. Meanwhile the same people are totally vilified as chavs, told that their concerns are racist and moved away from the party that traditionally looked after them but has turned into a liberal elite.

The frustration that WILL be felt when they realise that they've been lied to and that there is no easy answer to the EU question will be huge and raw. I genuinely fear riots on our streets when reality dawns.

CKhalvashi

DD2 had someone yesterday ask when she's going back to wherever she came from. Luckily for the kid that asked her, I wasn't around when it was asked.

She also wants us to get out (to somewhere in the EU) while we have the chance. As a lot of NP know, I've been thinking about it for a while, and this has definitely put the issue back into serious consideration. Preliminary report probably by the end of next week, but it'll possibly be the country that a slight majority of my long-term clients are from. The lease on the warehouse is up in 2019, so phasing out over 3 years seems sensible.

bugslet

The EU has a habit of being pragmatic for all Junckers bluster, it has in the past accommodated various countries quirks. This is a very big quirk though.

I agree with CK, there's been so much FoM already, that I can't see the situation returning to preFoM days.

I think that both campaigns were dire, if Remain had spent more time mentioning the positives it would have been much better, instead we were obligated to listen to frankly desperate sounding scare stories, which may have had a grounding in reality but had been over-inflated.

I'm naturally a small state person, I function best in a stripped down , lean organisation with limited beaurocracy , all my admin works on the KISS principle, I genuinely couldn't work as an employee for a large corporation like my main customer. I go to their offices and it drives me nuts to see how lumbering and inefficient it is. I also thought that at 52 my attitude to risk would have diminished, but I recently completed a risk profile for my IF A as part of his second masters, ( pro Leave and obviously far from stupid ), and it seems that I still enjoy risk. I also am hyper independent, which is why I prefer being my own boss and also, no offence meant to Mr Bugs, I like not only living alone, but having no family at all, it makes me feel 'light'.

I thought I'd offer a more personal take besides the usual migration, sovereignty and fiscal themes.

bugslet

Oh and all the things I was told to worry about, they never happened, it was the thing or things that no one imagined, that blind sided me and that often holds true for countries.

Pyxis

While still reeling, the thing that has surprised me the most is feeling like I am in a country I don't recognise any more.

I always knew I was a bit odd, , but feel even odder now.:(

I keep having to remind myself that I was not in a tiny minority of voters but in a very large one.

vivatifosi

Oh your poor DD CK, that's awful. I'm not sure how old she is. Hopefully the other child was young and inquisitive rather than nasty, but that's still horrible whatever the motivation.

I have close friends from What we call Eastern Europe, they are very settled here but very concerned. One is Bulgarian, married to a Brit, another Lithuanian, married to a Brit, another Hungarian...here for eight years. All say attitudes towards them have hardened. Considering whether to go elsewhere. Not nice. I don't like racism.

I know that Brexit does not equal racism, but it has certainly become more acceptable to mutter racist sentiment.

I also think a big part of this (back to my earlier post) is that we haven't been allowed to have an honest debate about immigration and its impact on communities. The whole thing is a great big mess.