If we vote for Brexit what happens

N1AK

Sapphire wrote: »

You need to realise that some people, whose parents have experienced actual extreme fascism... blah blah blah

You brought up Fascists, even if you couldn't manage to spell it right, but thanks for another rant unrelated to anything in the post you're responding to; it nicely emphasises my points :beer:

michaels

tincans6 wrote: »

The way the vote works for the leadership is that the MP's narrow it down to 2 and then the party members vote.
I'd suggest you want someone with solid anti Europe views who can garner just enough MP's (say a third) to come second and get through to the members vote.
I think Johnson would outscore Gove (who I think just looks a bit weird - trivial but it counts) on the MP's and would be the outer candidate.
May would be good as the 'inner' candidate but has to beat Osborne who will enjoy almost a free pass from the clown of a shadow chancellor for the next 2-3 years.
Johnson probably wins a members vote.

Which nicely leads to the Tories having a leader who is more popular among activists than their own MP's.

The perils of democracy in political parties.

Call me a cynic but who knows where Grove or BoJo actually stand on the referendum - all we know is where they stand on jockeying for position on the Tory Leadership. I could imagine that BoJo although campaigning for out is actually fairly confident of an 'In' win which would be his preferred position for when he takes over as party leader.

angrypirate

michaels wrote: »

Call me a cynic but who knows where Grove or BoJo actually stand on the referendum - all we know is where they stand on jockeying for position on the Tory Leadership. I could imagine that BoJo although campaigning for out is actually fairly confident of an 'In' win which would be his preferred position for when he takes over as party leader.

I dunno. I think an "In" vote would destroy all hopes of BoJo becoming Prime Minister now.

He also has a point in saying that an "In" vote basically takes away any negotiating power we might have and will give the "Full Steam Ahead" signal for more EU integration. Like BoJo says, a leave vote may still see us in the EU, but more along the lines of an affiliated member and in all probability alongside a handful of other countries who dont want more political integration.

mwpt

angrypirate wrote: »

He also has a point in saying that an "In" vote basically takes away any negotiating power we might have

Is it a common opinion that we have less negotiating power than other member states?

gfplux

movilogo wrote: »

That is not a bad thing though. The pensioners coming back from EU are one off event and these old people will die in few years time.

But, if current influx of (unlimited) migrants from EU (+ asylum from all over the world) continues, the problem is never ending. Then you will argue we need even more migrants when these migrants become old.

I'd rather solve the problem once for all

So voting to LEAVE EU.

Movilogo, how will leaving the EU reduce the number of refugees/asylum seekers coming to the UK. Has any of the out politicians explained how they will do this. Have they suggested they will send home the migrants from the EU already in the UK.
Have you and others like you holding a similar opinion considered f your out vote will have an effect on the numbers.

gfplux

I have copy and pasted a list that someone has put together who is clearly a stay voter.
I like the list and everyone should find it interesting reading.
Obviously some will find fault with some things on the list but at least it is a simple list than anybody can understand.
I don't necessarily agree with the additional comments of the author but I think his list adds to the debate.
......................


“What did the EU ever do for us?

In the week when the UK's five extremist right-wing media billionaires won their battle to waste our time, money and political capital on a EU referendum, I thought it a good time to post the great letter by Simon Sweeney in the Guardian, which he kindly allowed me to reproduce in my book, "The Prostitute State - How Britain's Democracy has Been Bought":

"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"

Please share - the anti-EU campaign will have the full force of Murdoch's and the other 4 extremist right-wing media billionaires papers whose agenda is to destroy all our human rights.

As I wrote in The Prostitute State, over 80% of UK papers are owned by five extremist right wing media billionaires: Rupert Murdoch, (Sun/Times), Barclay Brothers (Telegraph), Richard Desmond (Express) and Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail).

Murdoch is Australian living in New York, Rothermere lives in France, the Barclay Brothers in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes.

So key question is in light of the above list, why have these billionaires for decades tried to destroy the EU's democratic institutions?

Together we can take him/them on and beat him/them.

peace love respect
Donnachadh x
https://www.theprostitutestate.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/The-Prostitute-State-How-Britain…/…

CLAPTON

gfplux wrote: »

Movilogo, how will leaving the EU reduce the number of refugees/asylum seekers coming to the UK. Has any of the out politicians explained how they will do this. Have they suggested they will send home the migrants from the EU already in the UK.
Have you and others like you holding a similar opinion considered f your out vote will have an effect on the numbers.

of the 600,000 immigrants into the uk each year, about 30,000 are asylum seekers
we have some control over asylum seekers and none over EU migrants

prosaver

"What did the EU ever do for us?

Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; we import more from the EU . that figures wrong
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; Our own money anyway that we gave to the EU
clean beaches and rivers; caused floods due to the EU ban on dredging
cleaner air; we done that ourself s
lead free petrol; we done that ourself s there was no more need for lead free.gary is correct, gasoline was around long before cars were. Lead additives were added to reduce detonation, that pinging and knocking sound, and engine run on that used to happen in old carburatored vehicles. The US Government, along with the EPA, mandated that all vehicles sold after 1975 (I think this was the year) in the US be required to use unleaded gasoline, and that leaded was to be phased out by the end of the 70's.
This was good for the enviroment, but it was bad early on for cars. Auto makers had little time to build engines that did not need lead based additives in the fuel. After a while, things were smoothed out. With the widespread use of fuel injection and computer controlled engines beginning in the mid to late 80's, this was no longer even an issue
restrictions on landfill dumping; caused fly tipping
a recycling culture; we done that ourself s
cheaper mobile charges; Still expensive tarif instead
cheaper air travel; we done that ourself s ryan air
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; so we ate Horse meat instead whay to go EU?
better product safety; still fake EU safety kite marks from china
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; Facts please .. to much red tape
break up of monopolies; er like the electric and gas and waterboard..er no
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; China again
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; joking
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; More expensive prices in the EU
freedom to travel No stil travelled b4 but helpfull for gun smuggling etc terrorist, so called migrants and fake asylum seekers
, live and work across Europe; true:beer:
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; with our own money again
access to European health services; Strain of our NHS
labour protection and enhanced social welfare; easy loop holed
smoke-free workplaces; we done that
equal pay legislation; no contacts Zero hours contracts normally mean there is no obligation for employers to offe
holiday entitlement; done nought about that?
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; Junior doctors? the employer will make you ''redundant'' if you dont
strongest wildlife protection in the world; like seagull hate them
improved animal welfare in food production; caged chickens/pigs
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; er EU said Brussels bureaucrats were ridiculed yesterday after banning drink manufacturers from claiming that water can prevent dehydration.

look it up.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8897662/EU-bans-claim-that-water-can-prevent-dehydration.html
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant; inter pol as already here
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; joke
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; where?
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; debatable
investment across Europe contributing to better livingNot for us, only poor countries standards and educational, social and cultural capital.Not for us, only poor countries
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. Germany still trying to rule the roost though?

Thank you:)

michaels

This may take a while:

gfplux wrote: »

I have copy and pasted a list that someone has put together who is clearly a stay voter.
I like the list and everyone should find it interesting reading.
Obviously some will find fault with some things on the list but at least it is a simple list than anybody can understand.
I don't necessarily agree with the additional comments of the author but I think his list adds to the debate.
......................


“What did the EU ever do for us?

In the week when the UK's five extremist right-wing media billionaires won their battle to waste our time, money and political capital on a EU referendum, I thought it a good time to post the great letter by Simon Sweeney in the Guardian, which he kindly allowed me to reproduce in my book, "The Prostitute State - How Britain's Democracy has Been Bought":

"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; Unclear as a lot of our exports to elsewhere in the world go via Rottadam
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; We pay for those funds and more as a net contributor, out we could still do the same and or distribute the funds differently and have money left over to do more
clean beaches and rivers; Could we not legislate for this and indeed even higher standards nationally if we so wished?
cleaner air; Ditto
lead free petrol; Ditto - lots of non-EU countries have lead free petrol.
restrictions on landfill dumping; Ditto
a recycling culture; Ditto
cheaper mobile charges; Agree outside the EU we would have much less ability to cap international roaming charges to EU countries
cheaper air travel; Again what has this got to do with EU membership, EasyJet fly cheaply to non-EU countries as well
improved consumer protection and food labelling; And the UK couldn't pass such laws or even stricter if we wanted to?
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; British Scientists can decide whether there is evidence to back that assertion and then appropriate British laws can be passed to protect consumers although duplicating research is probably not necessary.
better product safety; IN some cases existing British Standards may have exceeded European ones that we had no choice but to adopt.
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; Um there wouldn't be competition with EU and international produced products without the EU? WE could have lower tariffs against non-EU countries outside the EU if we chose to do so bringing lower prices for food, the higher food prices as a result of the CAP are of course highly regressive.
break up of monopolies; Which UK monopolies have be broken up as a result of the EU, why wouldn't we have been able to break them up ourselves if we were not in the EU? The EU seems happy for countries to have only 2 or 3 mobile phone companies which is clearly anti-competitive.
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; Agreed
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; Agreed and yet we still trade with countries outside the EU without such costs being prohibitive
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; Cos like that is such a big cost for most people who shop locally most of the time and otherwise can make the small effort to choose a competitive rate visa card and agian mainly applies to countries i the EUR which I don't think anyone is suggesting we join....
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; Agree but this is of course a double edge sword and is currently holding down wages of the lowest paid in the UK whilst benefiting the users of services such as coffee shops and cleaners - highly regressive again.
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; Funded by our contributions again, has no one ever done a work placement in a non-eu country?
access to European health services; And yet we are still advised to take out insurance before traveling to Europe and again do we gain or lose overall from this?
labour protection and enhanced social welfare; Again we are restricted to EU rules, perhaps we would rather have more protection but we aren't allowed to.
smoke-free workplaces; Funny - I thought the US and other non-EU countries had similar - no?
equal pay legislation; Again is this an EU only competency? Did we have no equality legislation before the EU?
holiday entitlement; Ditto
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; Again do we want this limit or longer or shorter?
strongest wildlife protection in the world; Do we want such strong protection - or stronger even?
improved animal welfare in food production; Ditto
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU funded is of course merely spending our net contribution however pooling research (both within and outside the EU) make sense
EU representation in international forums; In theory the EU should have more clout than the UK alone - in reality it appears that given the EU represents many stats that often disagree it hardly seems to be a 'strong' power.
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; Ditto, it often seems that the EU position is driven by the preferences of a single or small group of nations for whom some particular issue is very important than the good of the block overall - indeed the 'common good' may often differ from the good of individual members.
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; Agree that pooling resource is useful, not sure how effective the EU is as a block due to the internal divisions
European arrest warrant; Makes sense excepet that it also leads to EU courts having primacy over British ones - suppose the EU agreed on an age of consent at 15 over the UK's objections, we would just have to live with it.
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; None of this happens for example with the US, Canada or Australia?
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; As above, pooling resources makes sense but we already have the UN for such things
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; That is the EUs definition of these things, again don't with have UN bodies already to do this?
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital. WE can choose to spend our net contribution on such things or decide to spend it on our priorities like infrastructure or training young people.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. We have had a recent European war in the Balkans and then in Crimea. The lack of local accountability is leading to unrest in many South European states. Would France and Germany really have returned to war had there been no EU?
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Right - so the Berlin wall wouldn't have fallen without the EU and the former soviet states wouldn't have pursued democracy and capitalism....
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future. More of the 'sweep of history' in the 20th and 21st century has been about the dismantling of conglomerated states allowing individual nations to benefit from their individuality. With the internet and information economies, distance becomes less and less of a factor when it comes to governance and there is more scope for alliances between countries with shared cultures and histories, why should the UK ally ourselves with similar countries like Canada and Australia than Bulgaria and Romania?

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"

Please share - the anti-EU campaign will have the full force of Murdoch's and the other 4 extremist right-wing media billionaires papers whose agenda is to destroy all our human rights.

As I wrote in The Prostitute State, over 80% of UK papers are owned by five extremist right wing media billionaires: Rupert Murdoch, (Sun/Times), Barclay Brothers (Telegraph), Richard Desmond (Express) and Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail).

Murdoch is Australian living in New York, Rothermere lives in France, the Barclay Brothers in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes.

So key question is in light of the above list, why have these billionaires for decades tried to destroy the EU's democratic institutions?

Together we can take him/them on and beat him/them.

peace love respect
Donnachadh x
www.theprostitutestate.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/The-Prostitute-State-How-Britain…/…

And breathe....

CLAPTON

gfplux wrote: »

I have copy and pasted a list that someone has put together who is clearly a stay voter.
I like the list and everyone should find it interesting reading.
Obviously some will find fault with some things on the list but at least it is a simple list than anybody can understand.
I don't necessarily agree with the additional comments of the author but I think his list adds to the debate.
......................


“What did the EU ever do for us?

In the week when the UK's five extremist right-wing media billionaires won their battle to waste our time, money and political capital on a EU referendum, I thought it a good time to post the great letter by Simon Sweeney in the Guardian, which he kindly allowed me to reproduce in my book, "The Prostitute State - How Britain's Democracy has Been Bought":

"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"

Please share - the anti-EU campaign will have the full force of Murdoch's and the other 4 extremist right-wing media billionaires papers whose agenda is to destroy all our human rights.

As I wrote in The Prostitute State, over 80% of UK papers are owned by five extremist right wing media billionaires: Rupert Murdoch, (Sun/Times), Barclay Brothers (Telegraph), Richard Desmond (Express) and Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail).

Murdoch is Australian living in New York, Rothermere lives in France, the Barclay Brothers in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes.

So key question is in light of the above list, why have these billionaires for decades tried to destroy the EU's democratic institutions?

Together we can take him/them on and beat him/them.

peace love respect
Donnachadh x
https://www.theprostitutestate.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/The-Prostitute-State-How-Britain…/…

presumably Donnachadh's bitterness about billionaires trying to destroy democracy, is that he sees that as the EU's job