If we vote for Brexit what happens

mwpt

CLAPTON wrote: »

Indeed there is serious issue of what constitutes democracy.
Your suggestion seems that becaue our democracy isn't perfect, it makes no difference if we make it even less presentative : I'm sure your logic leads to simply abolishing it altogether.
This would be your personal choice : that proposed by Hilter or that proposed by Stalin?

No, my logic is more about pointing out that at some level we never have what people think of as true democracy and the EU system is not so far off our very own "better" local democracy.

But in this emotive subject, this then becomes lines like "we have no say in the running of our country".

CLAPTON

mwpt wrote: »

No, my logic is more about pointing out that at some level we never have what people think of as true democracy and the EU system is not so far off our very own "better" local democracy.

But in this emotive subject, this then becomes lines like "we have no say in the running of our country".

most people don't think they have 'true ' democracy : most of us don't know what 'true' democracy means.

However most recognise that 'EU democacry' is vasely different to a sovereign parliament where there is a visible and easily traced link between a vote and the members of parliament.

mrginge

mwpt wrote: »

No, my logic is more about pointing out that at some level we never have what people think of as true democracy and the EU system is not so far off our very own "better" local democracy.

But in this emotive subject, this then becomes lines like "we have no say in the running of our country".

your logic demonstrates total lack of understanding of how British politics has evolved over the last twenty or so years.

TrickyTree83

mwpt wrote: »

No, my logic is more about pointing out that at some level we never have what people think of as true democracy and the EU system is not so far off our very own "better" local democracy.

But in this emotive subject, this then becomes lines like "we have no say in the running of our country".

I'd disagree with this.

For all its failings, the UK parliament has MP's in your local area, who will run surgeries which you can attend should you wish to do so. You can go in there and look them in the eye. They speak your language, hopefully they live locally to you (more do than don't), they likely share your understanding of life in this country and would probably understand and maybe even share your concerns.

Can any of the above be said for any form of politician in the EU institutions?

Probably just the UK citizens in them.

Also consider that if you were to speak to this local MP of the UK parliament about your concerns and you are met with "...there is nothing that can be done, it is an EU directive". How would that make you feel? Do you feel empowered by that? If god forbid there was a situation in which you were desperate and in need of assistance, a voice that can put your case forward. Would you be more likely to be heard in the House of Commons or in the European Parliament?

Perhaps you feel the way you do because you've never had to approach a member of parliament about an issue only to be turned away because they no longer have the power to make a difference. But consider that other people in this country do have these issues and have spoken to their local MP and have been met with a wall of EU regulation and directives.

Factor in time too. If you indeed did believe that there was enough of a voice for your case to be heard at the EU parliament, you are then competing with a potential 500m other people to be heard. Also there's only so many hours that your representative can speak in the EU parliament, will your case be the one that is chosen?

At the very top of the EU, where we find the commission it is anti-democratic, Remain concede that they are un-elected. However in the EU parliament where you're supposed to have a say via your MEP your democratic voice is diluted to such an extent that I would very much doubt you will be heard. Especially when there's a business waiting in the wings to buy the MEP's time (lobbying).

PLEASE do not be blinded by left/right/centre/radical whatever party political lines or even some ideal like socialism, communism, liberalism or the like. You absolutely must see the EU for what it is, good and bad. We're not likely to get another chance at this referendum so think really hard about it.

wotsthat

I spotted a mistake in an EU Regulation which delayed some third country shipments. I contacted EU officials directly and also via UK representatives and a trade association. A correction was in the next Official Journal.

If I spoke to my MP and he told me he couldn't do anything because it's an EU directive innit he'd be missing my vote at the next election. How can lawmakers know what people want if their representatives don't tell them?

TrickyTree83

wotsthat wrote: »

I spotted a mistake in an EU Regulation which delayed some third country shipments. I contacted EU officials directly and also via UK representatives and a trade association. A correction was in the next Official Journal.

If I spoke to my MP and he told me he couldn't do anything because it's an EU directive innit he'd be missing my vote at the next election. How can lawmakers know what people want if their representatives don't tell them?

A mistake in the regulation isn't the same as a fundamental problem with it.

Will the EU be changing its regulations and directives around competition in business to let the UK government save the steelworks in Port Talbot? Jeremy Corbyn wants to nationalise it, you can't. The EU says you can't. They will fine the UK government if they try to do so, they fined Italy because the same has happened in Sicily, Italy where they are supporting their steel works there.

Edit: I'll also add, the EU won't let the UK government remove VAT from womens sanitary products! It is ABSOLUTE madness. Can your local MP help affect that? We need to take control back of our own legislation.

Generali

Conrad wrote: »

What Commonwealth alliance boost have they allowed for?

How keen do you reckon the colonies are to have the oppressors back?

wotsthat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

A mistake in the regulation isn't the same as a fundamental problem with it.

Will the EU be changing its regulations and directives around competition in business to let the UK government save the steelworks in Port Talbot? Jeremy Corbyn wants to nationalise it, you can't. The EU says you can't. They will fine the UK government if they try to do so, the same has happened in Sicily, Italy for supporting their steel works there.

Edit: I'll also add, the EU won't let the UK government remove VAT from womens sanitary products! It is ABSOLUTE madness. Can your local MP help affect that? We need to take control back of our own legislation.

When legislation is drafted you are at liberty to highlight any fundamental problems and point them out to your MP. Via a trade association my company has a dialogue through all stages of the process.

Maybe your MP isn't aware of your strong feelings about sanitary products. If he doesn't know how can he lobby for change? I'd support a blanket sales tax on all items.

I think it's a good idea EU members agree that state aid shouldn't be used to prop up industry that has failed.

TrickyTree83

wotsthat wrote: »

When legislation is drafted you are at liberty to highlight any fundamental problems and point them out to your MP. Via a trade association my company has a dialogue through all stages of the process.

Maybe your MP isn't aware of your strong feelings about sanitary products. If he doesn't know how can he lobby for change? I'd support a blanket sales tax on all items.

I think it's a good idea EU members agree that state aid shouldn't be used to prop up industry that has failed.

You can be as flippant as you want about it. It won't change the fact that we're unable to take unilateral decisions in key areas of government policy. And the voice of the people matters very little in this matter, the tampon tax has been quite well campaigned for and change is not on the horizon and the same can be said about steel. It's only a matter of time before another crisis or issue comes to the fore where we're unable to affect change in our own country.

You might think it's a good idea to let the steel industry in this country fail, I do not. It is fundamental to our defense as a nation and is massively important to many thousands of people across the UK and not just in Port Talbot.

CLAPTON

Generali wrote: »

How keen do you reckon the colonies are to have the oppressors back?

surprised they allowed you in