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If we vote for Brexit what happens
Comments
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110 bosses say City will 'thrive' outside EU
Indeed Conrad.
We all know many of the Rich and the City Fat Cats will do just fine either way.
Some of them will no doubt even do much better if we leave, out of the proposed new EU legislation on tax disclosure and cutting down on tax avoidance, and away from all that pesky legislation on workers rights.
Did you never stop to wonder why the leave campaign is funded by the rich political class and elites that you despise so much?
People like old Etonian multi-millionaire Stuart Wheeler who recently said, and I quote, "not all tax avoidance is bad"...
Or Peter Cruddas (yes, the very same Peter Cruddas who resigned after a news story appeared about him selling access to David Cameron) who in an interview in early 2011 said that he had: "A £10m apartment in Monaco, a £5m house in Hertfordshire, a house in Antibes, a yacht and a private jet".
These rich elites, the political class, bankers, etc, have invested millions in Tory and/or UKIP donations, and now fund the leave campaign with millions more of their own money.
There's a reason for that....:cool:“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
-- President John F. Kennedy”0 -
Your table looks like the ones in the Brexit economist's report. They use it as "proof" that the problems of the EU economies are due to EU regulation. Its a bit of cheek to ask remainers to explain these statistics when Tim Congdon fails to explain his selective views. His comment that "Too much regulation must be the main explanation" sounds to me like a rather desperate remark. For example, he claims that banking regulation since 2008 has been a factor. Does anyone seriously believe that banking regulation is unnecessary after the austerity we have endured?
One can speculate on why the EU's performance compares unfavourably with others. The reasons are not particularly important. But clearly the EU economic model is failing and we're tied to it like a ball and chain.
If the EU had a traditional government they would be booted out. But of course that can never happen. Difficult to understand why the remainers are so happy with mediocrity.If I don't reply to your post,
you're probably on my ignore list.0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »Indeed Conrad.
We all know many of the Rich and the City Fat Cats will do just fine either way.
Some of them will no doubt even do much better if we leave, out of the proposed new EU legislation on tax disclosure and cutting down on tax avoidance, and away from all that pesky legislation on workers rights...........
and the EU's attempts to control bankers bonuses.......Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
One can speculate on why the EU's performance compares unfavourably with others. The reasons are not particularly important. But clearly the EU economic model is failing and we're tied to it like a ball and chain.
If the EU had a traditional government they would be booted out. But of course that can never happen. Difficult to understand why the remainers are so happy with mediocrity.
I am not happy with mediocrity, nor am I content with the EU. I see it as a lesser of two evils
I found the pro-Brexit economists report interesting and it did present some plausible arguments, but lots of statements had little justification.
I do not buy the argument that the EU is undemocratic. The Commission is basically the EU civil service and the Commissioners are the Permanent Secretaries appointed to head it. We do not elect the civil service do we? Neither do we get much chance to change our Government between elections.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
I am not happy with mediocrity, nor am I content with the EU. I see it as a lesser of two evils
I found the pro-Brexit economists report interesting and it did present some plausible arguments, but lots of statements had little justification.
I do not buy the argument that the EU is undemocratic. The Commission is basically the EU civil service and the Commissioners are the Permanent Secretaries appointed to head it. We do not elect the civil service do we? Neither do we get much chance to change our Government between elections.
Democracy to my mind is when you have a choice. In a UK general election you have debates between different parties. The PM, leader of the opposition and other parties put their agenda across to the electorate on TV. You know what choices are available and what you will get if you vote a particular way. That simply doesn't happen in the EU.If I don't reply to your post,
you're probably on my ignore list.0 -
Democracy to my mind is when you have a choice. In a UK general election you have debates between different parties. The PM, leader of the opposition and other parties put their agenda across to the electorate on TV. You know what choices are available and what you will get if you vote a particular way. That simply doesn't happen in the EU.
It seems to me it is impossible anyway. You and I have one vote. In the UK it is for a candidate in the constituency we live. Whichever way we vote, we cannot ensure that the candidate we vote for is elected, that the person we elect is in the Government party, that he/she is in the Government, or that he/she will vote for what we want.
I agree that it would be better if the media gave more coverage to the election of MEPs and their policies. I do not know if this cursory treatment at Euro-elections is just a UK thing or whether it is an EU thing. My impression is that the main parties put their least able candidates up at Euro elections.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
It seems to me it is impossible anyway. You and I have one vote. In the UK it is for a candidate in the constituency we live. Whichever way we vote, we cannot ensure that the candidate we vote for is elected, that the person we elect is in the Government party, that he/she is in the Government, or that he/she will vote for what we want.
I agree that it would be better if the media gave more coverage to the election of MEPs and their policies. I do not know if this cursory treatment at Euro-elections is just a UK thing or whether it is an EU thing. My impression is that the main parties put their least able candidates up at Euro elections.
you seem to be arguing that democracy is worthless and we might as well simply have dictatorship0 -
you seem to be arguing that democracy is worthless and we might as well simply have dictatorship
Where did I say that? You start from the position that the EU is undemocratic: I disagree.
The UK has voted to sign the various treaties that govern it. Nobody forced us to sign them and it did not happen by accident. We elected MPs who made these decisions using the same democratic system. Not everyone agreed with their decisions, indeed you may have voted for the other party but still got an MP who voted to sign the treaties. Or you may have voted for the candidate elected and disagreed with them voting for the Treaty but had no chance to reverse that decision.We may well vote to change this membership status in June, which shows that our Parliament does retain sovereignty at present.
The EU's authority to affect the UK is sovereignty we have chosen to pool with others. That does not make it undemocratic: it is the way we have chosen to do things. The UK elects MEPs on a proportionate basis to our size, our elected government nominates (ie controls) our Commisioners and Ministers to attend the Council. It is different but that does not make it undemocratic any more than our Parilament is undemocratic because you disagree with something it has done.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
Where did I say that? You start from the position that the EU is undemocratic: I disagree.
The UK has voted to sign the various treaties that govern it. Nobody forced us to sign them and it did not happen by accident. We elected MPs who made these decisions using the same democratic system. Not everyone agreed with their decisions, indeed you may have voted for the other party but still got an MP who voted to sign the treaties. Or you may have voted for the candidate elected and disagreed with them voting for the Treaty but had no chance to reverse that decision.We may well vote to change this membership status in June, which shows that our Parliament does retain sovereignty at present.
The EU's authority to affect the UK is sovereignty we have chosen to pool with others. That does not make it undemocratic: it is the way we have chosen to do things. The UK elects MEPs on a proportionate basis to our size, our elected government nominates (ie controls) our Commisioners and Ministers to attend the Council. It is different but that does not make it undemocratic any more than our Parilament is undemocratic because you disagree with something it has done.
I don't start from the position that the EU isn't democratic although many leavers do take that position.
It seems to me however, that the actual practical level of participation and our ability to affect the legislation is far greater with a sovereign UK parliament than within the EU.
Whilst its fairly rare, public action can cause legislative change quite quickly: most unlikely if it has to be referred to the 28 EU countries.
I don't argue that the EU is undemocratic because I disagree with specific rules just as you won't support the EU simply because you liked some specific EU employment law : it's about the total package and the inertia and long processes within the EU make it seem less democratic, less accountable and less responsive.0 -
As the title says. I am interested in what happens if we vote for a Brexit. Has anyone heard of any plans (being made or in place) for the next day, the next week, the next month and the next one or two years.
I know the result is still in question as is the date of the referendum but a serious Government, local Authority and large Company's have to have contingency plans for such a huge change. They would be neglecting their duty if they did not.
Can you imagine the chaos if at midnight of referendum day it is announced we are leaving the EU but "we have yet to work out how we do it!"
Will you buy a new house during the run up to the vote.
Would you put your house/flat on the market during the run up to the vote.
Would you book your European holiday during the run up to the vote.
Etc, etc, etc.
The above my original post that started this marathon thread.
Since then we now know the date of the referendum and we also know that there will be a two year (extendable by agreement) window to negotiate our exit.
However I don't think anyone has posted any links to preparations or plans in case of a Brexit. If I am wrong perhaps someone can point them out.
Just to add another question to my original.
Anyone want to speculate on which minister will be in charge of the Brexit negotiations?There will be no Brexit dividend for Britain.0
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