If we vote for Brexit what happens

cells

CLAPTON wrote: »

only a fool thinks that being 'civilised' (whatever that means) is the block on the free movement of people

and only a fool doesn't know we are all related to the HIV

and only a fool thinks knowing that, provides a road map of how we live our lives.

I could well be a fool but I still have an X and a poll card to vote against you

Generali

leveller2911 wrote: »

picture the scene. The UK in 50-75 years time when your children and Grand children are grown up and living in a gated community due to the break down in the Social Structure of the UK. They are nervous to about going outside of the community All because of greed and wanting more and more whilst the working class and the poor have even less.

The only problem with this is that the poor are getting richer not poorer both in the UK and internationally. Despite a huge increase in population, the number living in absolute poverty is falling quickly.

HornetSaver

Conrad wrote: »

It's actually incredibly infantile that Remain argues we, unique amongst independent prosperous nations would be cut-off and impotent, when there is a mass of evidence independent nations co-operate perfectly well across the globe.

I'm not aware of any independent prosperous nation which has stood in the way of peacetime economic policies that France and Germany agreed on, and then voluntarily relinquished its ability to do so.

The economic question isn't whether the EU holds the country back - it obviously does in certain aspects. The question is whether those downsides outweigh the advantages to being able to fight our corner from within.

Entirely agree with your more general point though - project fear is in full flow, and a lot of it is infantile and/or out-and-out scaremongering.

HornetSaver

Generali wrote: »

The only problem with this is that the poor are getting richer not poorer both in the UK and internationally. Despite a huge increase in population, the number living in absolute poverty is falling quickly.

I don't believe in using the word poverty, except in cases where the meaning of the word is clearly understood. But in answer to this quote, it's close to impossible to meet the definition of "absolute poverty" in the UK without someone breaking some pretty serious laws. The exception being if you find yourself in the position of literally having to sleep rough.

It's perfectly possible to work full time, spend every penny responsibly, and still find yourself in significant hardship. Indeed, in a situation which most people, including most right-leaning people, would consider to meet their personal understanding of poverty.

mayonnaise

leveller2911 wrote: »

Personally I want the best future for my children and grand children rather than my own selfish interests...

So do I.
My grandchildren mainly.
Myself, I'm about to go early retirement within the next couple of years, so the fallout of the likely depression in case of a brexit won't affect me much.
My children have done well for themselves, thanks to a good education (partly due to the EU Erasmus programme), and will do fine I'm sure. (They also bought in the SE which some on here say is impossible. )
My grandchildren though....I want them to have the same chances, the same opportunities, the same freedom as I have enjoyed during my life, in a confident, prosperous and tolerant UK, open to our European friends and the rest of the world.

chucknorris

mayonnaise wrote: »

So do I.
My grandchildren mainly.
Myself, I'm about to go early retirement within the next couple of years, so the fallout of the likely depression in case of a brexit won't affect me much.
My children have done well for themselves, thanks to a good education (partly due to the EU Erasmus programme), and will do fine I'm sure. (They also bought in the SE which some on here say is impossible. )
My grandchildren though....I want them to have the same chances, the same opportunities, the same freedom as I have enjoyed during my life, in a confident, prosperous and tolerant UK, open to our European friends and the rest of the world.

It looks to me like the joke (investing in shares, then the market falling, haven't we all been there?) went right over his head. He seems to have focused on me linking Brexit to a market fall, I'd say that would almost certainly happen if the vote was to exit Europe, not necessarily because the economic argument for leaving is weak, but the markets don't like uncertainty, and there would be huge uncertainty about the rules in the agreement that would be negotiated for the UK to leave Europe. But the market temporarily falling isn't even an important issue (certainly nothing to get upset about), it was just a joke aimed at my investment timing. He might not invest in shares and just simply doesn't understand how the stock market works, but what really surprised me was Clapton also not understanding, I thought that he was much more savvy than that.

On the subject of Brexit, I still haven't decided how I will vote.

EDIT: Or do some posters actually think that the markets will not fall if Brexit is voted for? Can't see it myself, with all that uncertainty about the exact nature of the exit.

CLAPTON

cells wrote: »

I could well be a fool but I still have an X and a poll card to vote against you

I hope you do indeed use your vote for what you believe is best.

chucknorris

mayonnaise wrote: »

You could explain him when you guys meet up?

lol! Good one...:rotfl:


As always, DYOR.

He doesn't want to understand, I think that he somehow thinks that when I said the markets would fall if the Brexit vote was a yes to leave, it was somehow me supporting a stay in Europe position position (which it wasn't). But I do think that it is almost certain that the markets would temporarily fall, due to the uncertainty, but the markets temporarily falling isn't even a big issue, I only mentioned it as a tongue in cheek laugh at myself for investing before the Brexit vote is decided.

As for Clapton, I think its probably just a case of taking sides on the Brexit issue. As I said I haven't made my mind up, I can see pro's and cons both sides of the argument.

wotsthat

leveller2911 wrote: »

You mention Britain being the "sick man of Europe" but in the past 40 years of the UK being a member of the EU the UK has been a net contributor to the EU for no less than 39 of those 40 years.

I think the fees are a red herring.

In any trade association you'll find the market leaders pay proportionality more towards the costs (for no extra votes). It's a recognition that the association is mutually beneficial and having some say is better than none.

They punch above their vote allocation by fully engaging with the support of their organisation. That's a choice.

Oh, I'm not scared of leaving the EU. Life's been good and I don't think it'll be improved by leaving the EU. Is this where I have to mention I'm thinking about my children too so I don't get accused of being selfish?

BobQ

londonlydia wrote: »

Just to wade in with my thoughts, I'm in the undecided camp leaning towards leave having always been remain. I've shifted in the last few weeks based on the Remain campaign, which has totally disappointed me with project fear. I'm just not interested in hearing the 'danger!' argument from either side, as my opinion is that on the whole the UK is a tough little nation that will get on and make do regardless of situation. So what I want to hear is the positive side, and the growth strategy. What opportunities are coming up from staying in the EU?

So because we are plucky Brits we should always pick the more difficult route when faced with a choice?

I agree that the quality of debate is generally poor and quite negative, but I do not see the remain side being any more guilty than Leave. I think the nature of the vote means that Leave have to make a negative campaign attacking the status quo. But I have seen little evidence that they have explained the positives of leaving. In particular I am still unclear whether Leave means outside the EU but closely aligned to it and using its trade agreements (like Norway) or totally independent of it with trade agreements set by the WTO unless we happen to negotiate a better deal. Are you clear what it means?

I think it is more difficult for the remain to avoid negativity since it is based on highlighting the risks and uncertainties in the Leave campaign. I would like to see some view of how much more they want to see the EU change.

Personally I am for remain as I think leaving will damage the UK in so many ways but I expect the EU to change. I would regard it a good outcome if the vote was narrowly to remain and it strengthened the UK's hand in demanding further change in the EU (which we can better influence from within). On balance, we have gained more from being in the EU than we have lost. The strength of the EU economy is because of the EU not inspite of it.

I should add I'm a 30yr old female employed in the defence industry. I am going to vote (I always do) but I'm not deciding until I've fully read up and debated.

The trend in defence in the past 30 years has been closer cooperation, mergers and alliances between EU based defence and aerospace industries. This process is continuing to reflect the demands for more for less. It is easier to do this within the EU than outside of it and we run the risk of being excluded.