If we vote for Brexit what happens

Tromking

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Having spent the vast majority of my working life in the private sector from failed in a multitude of environments including start ups to PLC's. I was not prepared for the gross inefficiency within the public sector which I encountered. We've driven costs down to a level which are now just over 10% of that a comparable private sector organisation. Plenty of waste and savings in the pipeline to come. Being the public sector the Unions of course want their two penny worth. Which of course results in slow progress and 20 committee meetings to make a decision. Put the blame fairly on the management, the incestuous nature of promoting those in the club to maintain the status quo. No one ever gets the boot........

A rather 20th century view of the public sector there and certainly not my experience, but hey-ho it takes all sorts.:)

CKhalvashi

Tromking wrote: »

A rather 20th century view of the public sector there and certainly not my experience, but hey-ho it takes all sorts.:)

Not in my experience too.

4 management jobs in my mothers NHS department (2 at 8a, 1 at 8b, 1 at 8c IIRC) is now 1 at 8a and 1 at 8c.

That's more than £100k a year saved upfront, and both went under Labour (2 retirements and no replacements sought).

They're working extremely hard, are understaffed and are struggling to recruit due to the loss of bursaries and low pay (it's normal to come from a band 5/6 job to the basic band 7), so with multiple retirements in the next 10 years, this is going to get really interesting, and only patients will suffer without significant investment in trainees.

Thrugelmir

Tromking wrote: »

A rather 20th century view of the public sector there and certainly not my experience, but hey-ho it takes all sorts.:)

Experience from what though. If it's decades of public sector service then you'll naturally have a narrow view. I've never worked anywhere where improvements haven't been achievable. Though depends on whether there's the desire to actually do something about it. Sometimes far too easy just to let sleeping dogs lie. Rather than put your head above the parapet.

Thrugelmir

CKhalvashi wrote: »

They're working extremely hard, are understaffed and are struggling to recruit due to the loss of bursaries and low pay (it's normal to come from a band 5/6 job to the basic band 7), so with multiple retirements in the next 10 years, this is going to get really interesting, and only patients will suffer without significant investment in trainees.

I've a good insight into the NHS at a local level through close connections. Again management seems to be an issue, most certainly at senior levels. With many experienced opting to take early retirement then coming back as bank staff. With changes in job roles etc coming thick and fast. Though one must say that patients don't help either these days. As people are ruder, more aggressive, less respect etc. A sign of the changing culture in this country.

CKhalvashi

Thrugelmir wrote: »

I've a good insight into the NHS at a local level through close connections. Again management seems to be an issue, most certainly at senior levels. With many experienced opting to take early retirement then coming back as bank staff. With changes in job roles etc coming thick and fast. Though one must say that patients don't help either these days. As people are ruder, more aggressive, less respect etc. A sign of the changing culture in this country.

Bank staff aren't usually the issue though, and actually in cases of overstaffing, it can be cost effective for this to happen, as it gives the NHS the flexibility required to manage their demands in theory. A band 3 admin assistant will be paid at band 3 whether they're on bank or whether they're permanent.

Agency staff are a different kettle of fish, not cost effective, and should (IMO) be banned in the NHS unless as a short term last resort.

Despite being understaffed, it's cheaper to pay (Band 7 + R&R) * time and a half than to get agency staff in, and this is what the hospital my my mother works at is doing. This works fine as long as people in the department want the extra money, however I can see, especially at band 8, where this isn't possible due to there being no overtime.

It'd still be cheaper to have additional band 7 staff at normal rate though, as I'm sure you're aware.

TrickyTree83

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Experience from what though. If it's decades of public sector service then you'll naturally have a narrow view. I've never worked anywhere where improvements haven't been achievable. Though depends on whether there's the desire to actually do something about it. Sometimes far too easy just to let sleeping dogs lie. Rather than put your head above the parapet.

Don't worry.

I was with the DWP for a good few years, what you state as your experience of the public sector is the same as mine.

I'd agree that not all public services are the same as one another, just because your experience of the NHS or A.N.Other public service is good in your own opinion does not mean that translates to other public services.

The DWP and it's subsidiary quangos were bloated inefficient clubs for the boys, with company cars, final salary pensions and many perks besides.

Thrugelmir

CKhalvashi wrote: »

Bank staff aren't usually the issue though, and actually in cases of overstaffing, it can be cost effective for this to happen, as it gives the NHS the flexibility required to manage their demands in theory.

Bank staff like to pick their hours of working. Which results in Agency Staff being called in. In a unit such as SCBU can cost a £1k for someone to do a weekend night shift. That's where the money gets drained away. When specialist staff are required.

Private_Church

Tromking wrote: »

A rather 20th century view of the public sector there and certainly not my experience, but hey-ho it takes all sorts.:)

I've seen plenty of waste in the NHS ranging from training up Paramedics to Practitioner standard who have a long history of being off sick and who were in their mid 40's when they started their training.

No sense whatsoever in training older Paramedics who have a history of being sick.

Then sitting and waiting in corridors watching numerous staff doing naff all but chatting about what they did on their weekends for ages so how many working hours are lost due to frivolous chat session between staff.

Having had surgery via the private sector through the NHS referral system there is no comparison with the private sector being efficient,fast and clean. I came back from visiting my mother in hospital tonight and its filthy, bacteria control is non existant, C-dif is rife ,broken bins,overflowing bins,radiators covered in so much dust its like fur coat,vulnerable patients having their food put out of reach etc etc and its still going on today.If you want photo's send me a PM.

I fully accept that many in the NHS are hardworking , do a good job and it must be depressing but far to many just aren't interested and the NHS is just not efficient. It was only a few years ago they started doing GP referral x-rays in the evenings and only just recently doing MRI scans on a Sunday why?.................. Its very simple really we as a nation expect far to much from the NHS and we need to understand the NHS is not there for gender re-assignement or breast enlargment for women who feel self conscious ,the NHS needs to reform and become efficient or die.


Just to add the Fire service are just as bad sending 5 vehicles 40 miles to rescue a cow from a ditch,spending £millions on re-branding exercises when they changed their names from the "Fire Brigade" to "Fire & Rescue". Or spending £10,000's on altering fire engines suspension so they can be lowered so that short firemen/women can reach the ladder racks only for them to leave the service shortly afterwards. These are just a few of the issues I've witnessed but anyone who thinks there isn't a problem is living in a dreamworld. The whole public sector is wasteful.
It really is that simple.

Tromking

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Experience from what though. If it's decades of public sector service then you'll naturally have a narrow view. I've never worked anywhere where improvements haven't been achievable. Though depends on whether there's the desire to actually do something about it. Sometimes far too easy just to let sleeping dogs lie. Rather than put your head above the parapet.

We digress, but this isn't about improvements per se but saving money. I'm happy to concede that the public finances need sorting, but let's not kid ourselves that this is about hopelessly inefficient public services in need of reform, this government has chosen to sort out its stonking great budget deficit by rationing the money its gives to public services.
Thankfully I should be out of the chaos in a few short years.

Tromking

Private_Church wrote: »

I've seen plenty of waste in the NHS ranging from training up Paramedics to Practitioner standard who have a long history of being off sick and who were in their mid 40's when they started their training.

No sense whatsoever in training older Paramedics who have a history of being sick.

Then sitting and waiting in corridors watching numerous staff doing naff all but chatting about what they did on their weekends for ages so how many working hours are lost due to frivolous chat session between staff.

Having had surgery via the private sector through the NHS referral system there is no comparison with the private sector being efficient,fast and clean. I came back from visiting my mother in hospital tonight and its filthy, bacteria control is non existant, C-dif is rife ,broken bins,overflowing bins,radiators covered in so much dust its like fur coat,vulnerable patients having their food put out of reach etc etc and its still going on today.If you want photo's send me a PM.

I fully accept that many in the NHS are hardworking , do a good job and it must be depressing but far to many just aren't interested and the NHS is just not efficient. It was only a few years ago they started doing GP referral x-rays in the evenings and only just recently doing MRI scans on a Sunday why?.................. Its very simple really we as a nation expect far to much from the NHS and we need to understand the NHS is not there for gender re-assignement or breast enlargment for women who feel self conscious ,the NHS needs to reform and become efficient or die.


Just to add the Fire service are just as bad sending 5 vehicles 40 miles to rescue a cow from a ditch,spending £millions on re-branding exercises when they changed their names from the "Fire Brigade" to "Fire & Rescue". Or spending £10,000's on altering fire engines suspension so they can be lowered so that short firemen/women can reach the ladder racks only for them to leave the service shortly afterwards. These are just a few of the issues I've witnessed but anyone who thinks there isn't a problem is living in a dreamworld. The whole public sector is wasteful.
It really is that simple.

Yep, it is that simple.
Keep rationing the money the NHS gets, that'll sort it.