If we vote for Brexit what happens

vivatifosi

WengerIn wrote: »

Anyway y'all voted to leave

You made a massive assumption there, that anyone who voices dissent against the EU voted to leave. Actually I voted remain.

As I have said here before I am increasingly annoyed by the EU and its hardening attitude towards the UK. At one point it said that it would offer citizenship to people who voted remain, now it increasingly wants to punish us as much as possible. This is in spite of the fact that at 16m we are a bigger population mass than many countries. I maintain that is in both the UK and the EUs interest to come to a good agreement when we are such close neighbours.

I agree that the single market is by and large a success. What I disagree with is the convenience with which the EU turns a blind eye economically. Yes, I am talking about Greece. You may well say it is a small part, but the fact remains that the fudged the numbers to allow it to join the Euro in the first place. Now that they are in, they fail to address it. How can that possibly give confidence if there is ongoing can kicking rather than addressing root problems? If such apathy spreads, how will it address problems in larger economies (eg Spain or Italy)?

These issues are more down to the single currency than any other issue, but the EU rules force new countries to join, even though it may not be expedient to do so. How is this in their best economic interest?

Tromking

Filo25 wrote: »

I would imagine their long term gameplan is to get the best possible deal for the EU.

Maybe they don't think the UK's bargaining position is as strong as many on here do so will take an opening position of trying to impose terms, it doesn't mean that will be the final position reached but I would suggest it was naive of anyone to think they would do anything but come out and talk tough in the opening salvos.

The long term plan is to keep the EU with at least its current 27 members.
I think it would shock most EU citizens how much they would be prepared to make them suffer to protect the project.
This weekend will give a good steer as to how really united they are and how much they are prepared to 'punish' the UK, and in some cases probably against the interests of their own people.
So glad to be leaving.

Filo25

Tromking wrote: »

The long term plan is to keep the EU with at least its current 27 members.
I think it would shock most EU citizens how much they would be prepared to make them suffer to protect the project.
This weekend will give a good steer as to how really united they are and how much they are prepared to 'punish' the UK, and in some cases probably against the interests of their own people.
So glad to be leaving.

Ahhhh the big bad EU, if the EU position is out of step with enough of the democratically elected governments of its constituent countries, I'm sure it will be brought into line soon enough.

Anyway both sides are still in the posturing phase at this point, maybe a few too many people believed the hype during the referendum campaign that the EU would be bending over backwards to give us everything we wanted with no concessions on their side, just because of the trade surplus, so reality is now likely to be a disappointment for which the EU alone must be blamed.

This won't be easy and people were foolish if they thought it would, but an agreed deal would have to be pretty awful to be worse than the likely impacts of a complete hard Brexit on WTO terms.

Tromking

Filo25 wrote: »

Ahhhh the big bad EU, if the EU position is out of step with enough of the democratically elected governments of its constituent countries, I'm sure it will be brought into line soon enough.

I wonder how many of those democratically elected Government's now regret not attempting to change the EU`s position when Cameron was begging for concessions a little over 12 months ago.
Thats not how the EU works, Merkel's alleged fury at Juncker and Tusk for the loss of the UK was soon forgotten and they all moved on to planning the supranational 'superstate' they all crave.

Quasar

Tromking wrote: »

I wonder how many of those democratically elected Government's now regret not attempting to change the EU`s position when Cameron was begging for concessions a little over 12 months ago.
Thats not how the EU works, Merkel's alleged fury at Juncker and Tusk for the loss of the UK was soon forgotten and they all moved on to planning the supranational 'superstate' they all crave.

Speaking as a continental EU citizen, I have to say the positions taken by many leavers (not all, ok?) are quite laughable. If more of them were able to read foreign sites, say French or German or Italian or Spanish, they would see that the various EU governments are NOT in the least regretting doing or not doing things when Cameron was begging for concessions, or baying for British economic decline or whatever other horror the tabloids are persuading the Brits to dread.

The EU is unanimous on how to proceed and all the talk of "punishing" Britain is the sort of daft waffle that has no place in serious negotiations. Shame that the British media do little to inform the public they purport to serve, and go instead for the them bad we good rhetoric.

As I said, it is laughable, and I'm only glad that the negotiating teams are made up by people who discuss issues with a level head, rather than with angry stances, because it is in BOTH sides' interests to reach an amicable, mutually convenient separation.

Ballard

I was told in no uncertain terms that the word Brexiteer was deeply insulting so I was surprised to hear Paul Nuttal repeatedly use it on the radio yesterday.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Quasar wrote: »

Speaking as a continental EU citizen, I have to say the positions taken by many leavers (not all, ok?) are quite laughable. If more of them were able to read foreign sites, say French or German or Italian or Spanish, they would see that the various EU governments are NOT in the least regretting doing or not doing things when Cameron was begging for concessions, or baying for British economic decline or whatever other horror the tabloids are persuading the Brits to dread.
Whilst I agree with your summation I can and do read sites from these countries, most frequently in their own languages.
Rarely in English versions even though more at least attempt these nowadays.
Be honest though; there is very little of any note about Brexit full stop, much less about regret.

The EU is unanimous on how to proceed and all the talk of "punishing" Britain is the sort of daft waffle that has no place in serious negotiations. Shame that the British media do little to inform the public they purport to serve, and go instead for the them bad we good rhetoric.
Ah. British media are indeed by and large awful, but you and I both know that the EU are very far from being "unanimous on how to proceed" - unless you are being extremely selective as you read foreign media as you describe above.
From Holland & Poland to Denmark and Ireland there are uncertainties regarding the UK's withdrawal.
In fact there have been calls from within Germany for a more moderate tone, have there not?
As for the "punish" ..... well, let us see if these EU negotiators moderate there tones and their demands as negotiations commence, eh?
Rather that describing the UK as "delusional" like Merkel has, or Junckers saying in the Bild "Britain's example will make everyone realise that it's not worth leaving.”
As I said, it is laughable, and I'm only glad that the negotiating teams are made up by people who discuss issues with a level head, rather than with angry stances, because it is in BOTH sides' interests to reach an amicable, mutually convenient separation.
"Level head"?
Oh, please.
Like Junckers of the "Pfft" to Mrs May, you mean?
Or Tusk, whose Poland he was former PM of did not want him in power within the EU?
How about Barnier who has repeatedly made thinly-veiled swipes at the UK?
Verhofstadt, the Belgian who called Brexit supporters "rats"?
I'm not suggesting that our home-grown equivalents are necessarily better but to describe these as "level-headed" is nothing short of ludicrous.

I realise from previous posts that you are (perhaps understandably) pro-EU.
I personally have no problem with that; you are just as entitled to your viewpoint as anyone else.

But there is no need for your derogatory tone towards so many of the country you chose to work and live in.
Describing the positions of some leave supporters as "laughable" is derogatory, especially when there are such large factions across the EU with similar anti-EU sentiments.

This is why Geert Wilders and his PVV did so well in the Dutch elections, now having 20 seats in their parliament.
How about Le Penn and her stance on the EU; how much support does she have?
Or even Germany's own AfD - how many millions support these?

As I say earlier, I understand why you would be so pro-EU.
But please, do not fall into the habit of becoming yet another pro-EU fantasist unable to recognize any of the EU's many faults like some others within these threads.
Many would expect better of you I'm sure; you are doing yourself a disservice by decrying so many British people.

Fella

Quasar wrote: »

If more of them were able to read foreign sites, say French or German or Italian or Spanish, they would see that the various EU governments are NOT in the least regretting doing or not doing things when Cameron was begging for concessions

That may well be what they're claiming in newspapers, but if they actually felt that way they would be even bigger fools than they already appear to be. They could have almost certainly avoided Brexit by giving Cameron a few meaningless concessions & it was a massive tactical blunder by them not to do so. Pure hubris.

Quasar

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

I realise from previous posts that you are (perhaps understandably) pro-EU.
I personally have no problem with that; you are just as entitled to your viewpoint as anyone else.

But there is no need for your derogatory tone towards so many of the country you chose to work and live in.
Describing the positions of some leave supporters as "laughable" is derogatory, especially when there are such large factions across the EU with similar anti-EU sentiments.

This is why Geert Wilders and his PVV did so well in the Dutch elections, now having 20 seats in their parliament.
How about Le Penn and her stance on the EU; how much support does she have?
Or even Germany's own AfD - how many millions support these?

As I say earlier, I understand why you would be so pro-EU.
But please, do not fall into the habit of becoming yet another pro-EU fantasist unable to recognize any of the EU's many faults like some others within these threads.
Many would expect better of you I'm sure; you are doing yourself a disservice by decrying so many British people.

From your post one would think that nobody here has been derogatory in their comments about the EU. The fact that so many patent untruths are posted here about how other EU members view Brexit, DOES show lack of knowledge about what is currently going on in the EU.

Like I said, in other European countries there isn't the "let's punish them Brit" feeling that there is made out to be in the British media and, as a result, on this site.

Yes, the EU does have many faults. Do tell me which trading bloc or indeed individual country in the world doesn't. I have no illusions that it is a perfect place. However other countries are working slowly and patiently to improve in the face of different viewpoints and mentalities, to the stage where now the EU is economically powerful enough to scare Russia and the USA (both of which want to see it fail).

The UK wants no part of it anymore and I respect that. What I find distasteful though, is the constant misinformation by the media, and the stoking up of fear that the EU will punish the UK, will be nasty to it etc. etc. There is none of that feeling in the EU people who matter, ie the individual governments and the negotiators, and the odd posturing hard word doesn't make policy.

As long as Britons fall prey to this idea that the EU is out to get them, they will perceive every little setback as proof that they are being hard done by. Someone else will always be found to blame, in this case the EU. Mrs May can rest easy.

Quasar

Fella wrote: »

That may well be what they're claiming in newspapers, but if they actually felt that way they would be even bigger fools than they already appear to be. They could have almost certainly avoided Brexit by giving Cameron a few meaningless concessions & it was a massive tactical blunder by them not to do so. Pure hubris.

Maybe the EU realised that sooner or later the UK was going to leave anyway? Let's face it, from the very start it was clear that the UK was not a very happy member.