If we vote for Brexit what happens

BobQ

I sense the next few weeks will see the Brexit fanatics floating on cloud nine. Conrad is so hyped up I fear he will explode. Reality will eventually dawn on them all. It does not matter what the Brave New World has to offer us, we will have to put up with it.

The more I hear May and Davis, the more I realise that they are just making it up as they go along.

davomcdave

Fella wrote: »

Somewhat of an aside but there's a real epidemic lately of Remainers who begin almost any interview with the comment "I voted Remain but I ACCEPT the result". Almost as if this is some magnanimous gesture on their part. Accepting the result doesn't earn special credit! Only the lowest of the low DON'T accept it. It's just that there are a lot of them.

No actually it's because anyone that presents a dissenting view is shouted down as a remoaner.

davomcdave

Fella wrote: »

No, I don't think most Brexiteers have any issue with people who wanted to Remain or voted to Remain. The issue is with the fact that since we had the vote a large number of Remainers have done everything in their power to try to overturn it, just because it wasn't the result they wanted. See the difference?

I've known many votes that didn't go the way I wanted. I was p*ssed off. But I didn't go on protest marches or take anybody to court, or endlessly whinge about not getting my way.

I guess the Remain camp just got too used to the luxury of having their choice without anybody else even getting to vote on the matter. That's why they're so incredulous & bitter at democracy in action.

Just as people that wanted to leave the EU spent many years taking the Government to court and agitating to leave, Hell, they even set up a political party funded by multi-squillionaire Jimmy Goldsmith.

mayonnaise

Fella wrote: »

No, I don't think most Brexiteers have any issue with people who wanted to Remain or voted to Remain. The issue is with the fact that since we had the vote a large number of Remainers have done everything in their power to try to overturn it, just because it wasn't the result they wanted. See the difference?

Sure, remainers need to accept the vote didn't go their way and have to accept we will be leaving the EU - for now. And I'm sure all of them do. But that's where it ends.
Circumstances change, opinions change. What might have seemed a good idea a year ago, might look like a really bad one in 5 years time. The right to free speech and the right to campaign for what one thinks is right didn't end on 23 June 2016.

Or as this chap says in the Guardian;

Britain is a democracy, and democracy does not mean “one person, one vote, once”. Nor does it mean “one people, one vote, once”.
“In democratic nations,” Brexit secretary David Davis said in a speech about Britain’s relationship with Europe a few years ago, “we hold regular meaningful elections where voters can stick with what they have or wipe the slate clean. Crucial to this principle of people power is the rule that a government cannot bind its successors.” And, he added wisely: “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/30/brexit-tragedy-negotiations-2020-change-public-mood

Fella

davomcdave wrote: »

Just as people that wanted to leave the EU spent many years taking the Government to court and agitating to leave, Hell, they even set up a political party funded by multi-squillionaire Jimmy Goldsmith.

Do you really think there's a comparison between wanting a vote on leaving and taking legal action because you had a vote & it didn't go the way you wanted?

The former is a request for a democratic say. The latter is a protest against that democracy. No comparison whatsoever.

And has been pointed out many many times, no Remainer would have complained about having a referendum if they'd won it.

Fella

mayonnaise wrote: »

Sure, remainers need to accept the vote didn't go their way and have to accept we will be leaving the EU - for now. And I'm sure all of them do. But that's where it ends.
Circumstances change, opinions change. What might have seemed a good idea a year ago, might look like a really bad one in 5 years time. The right to free speech and the right to campaign for what one thinks is right didn't end on 23 June 2016.

Or as this chap says in the Guardian;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/30/brexit-tragedy-negotiations-2020-change-public-mood

This is nothing to do with people changing their minds. We're talking about people who wanted to Remain all along, desparately trying to find a way to subvert the result of the referendum so that in practice or in effect we, er....Remain.

If you want to talk about people changing their minds though, I must have missed all the examples where Remainers who predicted instant economic catastrophy have popped up pointing out how utterly wrong they were. All I've seen is those people simply ignoring the economic good news & pushing back their predictions of doom a bit in the hope they can claim to be correct at SOME point.

It must be a miserable position to be in to be fair. Either Brexit is a failure, or it's a success and Remainers have to admit to being utterly wrong about it all.

Herzlos

Fella wrote: »

No, I don't think most Brexiteers have any issue with people who wanted to Remain or voted to Remain. The issue is with the fact that since we had the vote a large number of Remainers have done everything in their power to try to overturn it, just because it wasn't the result they wanted. See the difference?

You mean tried to engage in democracy? Or when they tried to ensure the process was done properly?

I don't really accept the result, in that it's not a clear mandate from the people. But I accept that the governments hands are tied about it and that we're leaving.
What I also don't accept is that because we got a tiny majority, that we should just charge in and make a mess of it. We've got a lot of hard work ahead and we should at least try and get out of this with some dignity and hopefully with a reasonable deal. How bad would it look it we were 6 years into negotiations when it turned out that we did something illegal and everything up to that point was technically invalid?

Herzlos

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Why has the EU not fined China when it seems so very keen on fining just about anybody else for comparatively minor infringements?

Can the EU fine China for infringements that only occur in China?

What incentive does China have to fix things? They aren't that interested in importing stuff from us and sending us money, when they can keep the money locally and export stuff to us. It's a deep-rooted cultural issue that's not going to go away because the EU or US are causing a strop about it, and it certainly won't change because of an independent UK buzzing about it's ear.

But with a population of approaching 1.5 billion compared to the EU's 450 million or so, and given the increasing disposable incomes and yet still relatively low wages there it's easy to see why anyone would want to sell or manufacture in China rather than in the EU.

How well distributed is that new wealth though? I got the impression that the majority of the 1.5bn in China were still pretty poor, and that the middle class was the only one really doing particularly well (by earning what is regarded as a low salary in the UK/US).

There's no point selling luxury goods to a market of 1.5bn if most of them can't afford said goods, when you could focus on a market of 450m where more of them can. That's ignoring any issues exporting to China.

There's also no point in trying to sell mundane goods into the same market, when they can undercut us on almost everything.

Tromking

EU now sounding more conciliatory this morning by suggesting that trade talks could begin if "sufficient progress" is made on separation talks.
1 zip to the UK perhaps?

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Herzlos wrote: »

Can the EU fine China for infringements that only occur in China?
Oh dear.
Obviously you barge in before bothering to even look at the posts. They occur in the EU too. Look at # 17994 "In 2015, more than 80,000 detention cases were registered by Customs" etc.

What incentive does China have to fix things? They aren't that interested in importing stuff from us and sending us money, when they can keep the money locally and export stuff to us. It's a deep-rooted cultural issue that's not going to go away because the EU or US are causing a strop about it, and it certainly won't change because of an independent UK buzzing about it's ear.
See above; this was never a suggestion - you're making up your own arguments again.
I said: "Globally, companies should actively pursue Chinese infringements with the full support of international law."


How well distributed is that new wealth though? I got the impression that the majority of the 1.5bn in China were still pretty poor, and that the middle class was the only one really doing particularly well (by earning what is regarded as a low salary in the UK/US).
Again, read the links before attempting debate?
"it's huge population means that more and more Chinese are rising out of poverty and indeed the middle classes are "exploding".
http://uk.businessinsider.com/chinas-middle-class-is-exploding-2016-8?r=US&IR=T "

There's no point selling luxury goods to a market of 1.5bn if most of them can't afford said goods, when you could focus on a market of 450m where more of them can. That's ignoring any issues exporting to China.
Now this really is making you look somewhat foolish; it is however the same post so .....
Again, read the links.
Like the one above.

There's also no point in trying to sell mundane goods into the same market, when they can undercut us on almost everything.
Oh dear, formulating your own arguments again?
Besides which, what do you call "mundane goods" then?
Beef like the Aussies just secured a deal for?

Responses highlighted in red.

Just as an observation (and accepting the thread is quite lengthy) it may be an idea to read the relevant posts before trying to butt in and debate points already discussed.

In summary I suppose the REAL point is that the rest of the world are afraid of China.
For a variety of reasons.