If we vote for Brexit what happens

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Moby wrote: »

Errant nonsense from you. We currently have free access to a huge market on our doorstep....we are putting that to the side and sailing off to never never land hanging on to the promises of Donald Trumpto give us comfort! Yep it is tough.....tough for all our futures in this shrinking Kingdom !

On the contrary it is abundantly evident that the "errant nonsense" comes all from yourself.
("Free" access my arris!)

I posed two questions which you have avoided answering in your unfounded haste to cry that that sky is falling on your head, in full "headless chicken" mode.
When you have regained enough composure perhaps you would be kind enough to answer these:

1:

"we deserve a referendum on the deal" ....... just how do you think would that work, exactly?

I suggest you examine how Brexit should progress according to EU guidelines before answering that, if you can.

2:

So again, just who exactly is in "such a mess"?
And why?

Conrad

Herzlos wrote: »

In order to do approx £1.2bn trade per day, that's approximately a 0.0000000019% membership fee. That's not even a rounding error, that's for all intents and purposes free.

Your maths is out.
The daily club fee equates to about 2.3%. Many corporations make just a 5% return on capital.


Canada will pay no club fee, zilch for virtually free trade and no concessions to FOM or sovereignty


You imply Brussels has no effect on our sovereignty - ok then I'll play along with this - but this then in turn implies we wont miss Brussels given it has no effect

Herzlos

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You only need to look at the language you use in your post to know the difference between those who support Scottish independence and those who oppose it. Constant references to England, rather than the UK.

That because as the largest part of the union, England has it's say pretty much all of the time. Take Brexit for example. Scotland, NI voted clearly in, Wales a bit mixed, England out. The result? Out.

Last election? Scotland voted in 1 Tory, 58 not-tory. The result? Tories.

The political different really does seem to be England Vs everyone else, where England gets it way because it has more votes. Scotland seems to be fairly well aligned politically with NI/Wales, but not England, so it's incorrect to say we're not politically aligned with the UK. I don't see that as loaded language, it's just a fact.

Conrad

Herzlos, I supported the Indy referendum.


If the Scots want another, that's fine with me, but I am perplexed why you would want independence only to hand over your destiny and sovereignty to old men in Brussels.

TrickyTree83

Herzlos wrote: »

That because as the largest part of the union, England has it's say pretty much all of the time. Take Brexit for example. Scotland, NI voted clearly in, Wales a bit mixed, England out. The result? Out.

Last election? Scotland voted in 1 Tory, 58 not-tory. The result? Tories.

The political different really does seem to be England Vs everyone else, where England gets it way because it has more votes. Scotland seems to be fairly well aligned politically with NI/Wales, but not England, so it's incorrect to say we're not politically aligned with the UK. I don't see that as loaded language, it's just a fact.

Again, you're doing it again.

When we keep talking in terms of separation you'll always have advocates for separation. It's not England dragging everyone along with them, it's merely more of your fellow citizens of the UK!

The devolved governments should be managing the regions. They're not responsible for constitutional arrangements, foreign policy, amongst other things and they should really keep it that way. You want to try to tell me that Scotland is that much different to the rest of the UK but that's just not true. I understand why independence agitators and SNP supporters would say that and want people to think that. There's only one set of people being divisive in that situation.

Herzlos

Conrad wrote: »

Your maths is out.
The daily club fee equates to about 2.3%.

My bad. You're right, £23m [after rebate] / £1200mn) * 100 = 1.9%

Many corporations make just a 5% return on capital.

Financial markets may run on such tight margins, but most companies are aiming for a gross margin of about 50%.

Canada will pay no club fee, zilch for virtually free trade and no concessions to FOM or sovereignty

Canada
Does
Not
Have
The
Same
Level
Of
Access
That
We
Get

It's not a valid comparison, and hasn't been the last hundred times you've mentioned it.

You imply Brussels has no effect on our sovereignty - ok then I'll play along with this - but this then in turn implies we wont miss Brussels given it has no effect

Very true. But since you're willing to take a financial hit (even just the paperwork for Brexit is costing us millions) just to restore a Soverignty that isn't affected, it seems a bit strange to me.

Herzlos

Conrad wrote: »

If the Scots want another, that's fine with me, but I am perplexed why you would want independence only to hand over your destiny and sovereignty to old men in Brussels.

Because we see more value and fairness dealing with Brussels than Westminster.

Herzlos

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

When we keep talking in terms of separation you'll always have advocates for separation. It's not England dragging everyone along with them, it's merely more of your fellow citizens of the UK!

True, we have a lot in common. But when there are differences, like our political outlook, is it not fair to quantify where those differences are? Especially when it's a clean line. I mean, why should we have our opinion ignored because we're grouped with a neighbour?

The devolved governments should be managing the regions.

They do, for as much as they've been allowed to. That's the crux of my problem, whilst they are devolved they only have so much leeway.

You want to try to tell me that Scotland is that much different to the rest of the UK but that's just not true. I understand why independence agitators and SNP supporters would say that and want people to think that. There's only one set of people being divisive in that situation.

Because it's true (at least in respect to England). We've voted differently every single time recently, unless you want to show me anything that shows we're aligned on something?

TrickyTree83

Herzlos wrote: »

True, we have a lot in common. But when there are differences, like our political outlook, is it not fair to quantify where those differences are? Especially when it's a clean line. I mean, why should we have our opinion ignored because we're grouped with a neighbour?


They do, for as much as they've been allowed to. That's the crux of my problem, whilst they are devolved they only have so much leeway.



Because it's true (at least in respect to England). We've voted differently every single time recently, unless you want to show me anything that shows we're aligned on something?

Because you divide it into regional results to support an agenda yes, but if you look at the referendum results and election results there are people in Scotland who think along the same lines as those in the rest of the UK.

It was recent history where Scotland was voting Labour along with large swathes of England (clearly a common ground), yet if we broke the result down during those elections into the regional results England may have been Conservative (I'll need to check that) but you didn't hear the English complaining that the Scots have put Labour into power, because we don't think divisively in terms of England, Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland it seems. We think in terms of the UK as a whole. And also it wasn't long ago that large parts of Scotland were blue. All that's changed is too many in Scotland have bought into this narrative that it's nasty Westminster causing all your problems and that somehow independence is the answer to all your ills. Well it's not. If you think Brexit is bad for the UK (and clearly you do) then Scottish independence will be an order of magnitude worse.

I've had this out many times with the other indy fanatics on the Scottish thread in this forum and there's no answer to the economic arguments, they just assert that they believe the figures to be falsified or more politely purposefully inaccurate to support maintaining the union. It's almost religious in nature, you only need to look at Kevin Hague's blog or Fraser Whyte's blog to see that the arguments the independence brigade make are false and deceitful and yet so many people in Scotland buy into them. Which makes me wonder if they did achieve independence will the SNP suddenly become the nasty party for lying to the electorate so badly? That leads me on to think that actually the Scots have already cottoned on to this and we've reached peak SNP, peak indy and we're seeing the death throws of it and put to bed this notion that it's the English and Westminster at fault for all your problems for at least until I'm collecting my pension if not longer.

Conrad

Herzlos wrote: »

Canada
Does
Not
Have
The
Same
Level
Of
Access
That
We
Get

It's not a valid comparison, and hasn't been the last hundred times you've mentioned it.


.

Current EU sales to the UK dwarf Canada's ten fold.


If non aligned, no European Canada can get almost total free trade, we as a far more important strategic neighbour will likely retain more or less full unfettered access.


AGAIN WE ARE ALREADY FULLY ALIGHNED AND ENGAGED IN FREE TRADE, Canada is not




BUT.............. I'd be cool with WTO and feel any issues with regards access are piffling, we like others will prosper in trade with the EU