If we vote for Brexit what happens

Moby

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You appear to want utopia in an in-perfect world, is your favourite song "Imagine"?

There's nothing wrong in striving for what you seek, but there is a difference between making choices that adversely affect the lives of many for the sake of the few on the basis of a utopian dream and making the correct decision. Pragmatism must always take precedence. Not only in decisions that we as a people take in future but as you analyse the present and the past.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=first+country+to+ban+slavery

We're a good people in this country. I sincerely believe deep down we've inherited that from the generation that didn't break under WW2. We rightly honour them, almost religiously, since they really do stand for the best in all of us. The stories of fighter pilots during the Battle of Britain flying their planes into enemy bombers knowing they would die to protect the citizens below them whether they knew them or not, and not only Brits but Poles, Americans, Canadians, Australians, etc... Sure there were some bad episodes during WW2, war is an ugly business. But that dogged determination, steel of character and self sacrifice would still be in almost all of us if we were called upon for it. Why would we? It certainly wouldn't be for the elites, the likes of the Queen, the Barclay brothers, David Cameron or Rupert Murdoch. It would be to protect my family, my friends, your family and your friends and our way of life. The freedom to be who you choose, do what you choose and (to a lesser extent sadly these days, hopefully this can be reversed) to say what you want.

To me places like the UK, the USA and other so called "Western" nations (note the word nation) are the most utopian places on this planet right now and we should be looking to protect that. If that means we remove ourselves from the EU because of catastrophes like Angela Merkel making decisions that negatively affect the people who voted to share a continent together then so be it.

I agree with much of what you say re. family and friends. I know about the exploits of other nationalities in WW2. That's my point. International co-operation is the way to go. I'm challenging the new jingoistic 'spirit of Empire' mood saying that we are special etc. because it should be remembered that the great majority of us were exploited in the same way as the elites exploited the peoples of Africa, India etc. That's where the workers movement came from. That's pragmatism isn't it. I'm simply not going to bask in the reflected glory of an Empire which exploited my ancestors. WW1 was different from WW2. WW1 was a war fought between elites in countries over power and domination. Working class people were sent over the trenches to die for the interests of the gentry elite. WW2 was a war against fascism. We all had a stake in that.
We need to get some perspective about how we are going to be great again once we break away from the shackles of the EU. We can't even look after our own people now:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38538637

mayonnaise

Ballard wrote: »

The ignore list is your friend.

Ignore list feature is useless as there's always someone who quotes his angry white supremacist vitriol anyway.

CKhalvashi

CLAPTON wrote: »

Just sounds like another UK taxpayers funded gravy train with the 'credit' going to the EU. All part of the EU prok barrel politics and corrupt patronage system.
I can fully understand why you are so pro-EU : I have no problem with benefit spongers, just with the system that allows this.
Quicker we leave the EU the better.

So you're against arts funding in all forms?

Ok, fine.

Ballard

mayonnaise wrote: »

Ignore list feature is useless as there's always someone who quotes his angry white supremacist vitriol anyway.

I do my best to skip over those but it's a shame that the ignore feature can't be made to hide quotes as well.

I'm more than happy to accept someone's views which are contrary to mine and there are some knowledgeable posters on here who voted to leave the EU but when someone continually posts utter nonsense I have to rethink whether I want to have to read their posts. The line for me was when I was accused of racism which is completely unfounded and doesn't reflect reality in the slightest.

CKhalvashi

CLAPTON wrote: »

maybe you should try to make rational, logical, well informed and persuasive arguments.

I have done, many times, and you've accused me just in the last 24 hours of being a benefit scrounger and another poster thought it would be nice to post my personal info onto this thread, because you don't like what I have to say.

Therefore, I repeat to you, that in no way directly or indirectly have I or any company I may be associated with benefitted from EU funds, nor have I ever been an employee or director or an EU-funded organisation. I can't make it any more clear than that. On the other hand though, I do agree with the EU supporting arts funding, as I feel it's a vital service.

We can't debate this if you're not going to listen to a word anyone who doesn't agree with you says. I had a message yesterday telling me to continue fighting my corner as it's important all opinions are heard, and that's from a Leaver.

DarkShadow wrote: »

Thanks to those who voted Leave, UK is going to deep sh*t

Completely agreed. We're not in the best position either way, and the reasons for this have been gone over many times.

Tromking wrote: »

Another Remainer mental colossus.......and they accuse Brexiteers of being mentally challenged.

Please learn how to spell. Informations are in my sig

Ballard

I really don't like the system of political donations as they are used to buy influence and peerages but I'm wondering how much notice the Tories wil take of this:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/07/donor-vows-to-stop-funding-tories-if-may-takes-uk-out-of-single-market

CKhalvashi

Ballard wrote: »

I really don't like the system of political donations as they are used to buy influence and peerages but I'm wondering how much notice the Tories wil take of this:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/07/donor-vows-to-stop-funding-tories-if-may-takes-uk-out-of-single-market

If others threaten to follow, then possibly quite a bit.

It's good to see the Tories being held to account by one of their supporters on this IMO.

leveller2911

CKhalvashi wrote: »

If others threaten to follow, then possibly quite a bit.

It's good to see the Tories being held to account by one of their supporters on this IMO.

So a wealthy businessman should have more influence than a working class Tory voter purely on the basis that he donates money to the party?.

Is that good for democracy?. Before so long the UK politcal scene will be akin to the US where all the politicians are owned by wealthy businessmen/women. Is that really what you want?.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

leveller2911 wrote: »

So a wealthy businessman should have more influence than a working class Tory voter purely on the basis that he donates money to the party?. .

Lets not start on the influence of wealthy businessmen when the leave campaign was funded by millionaires with a vested interest in the outcome and had the benefit of tabloid media barons pouring almost unlimited publicity their way.

Ballard

leveller2911 wrote: »

So a wealthy businessman should have more influence than a working class Tory voter purely on the basis that he donates money to the party?.

Is that good for democracy?. Before so long the UK politcal scene will be akin to the US where all the politicians are owned by wealthy businessmen/women. Is that really what you want?.

Businesmen donating to political parties is hardly a new issue and affects all parties and both sides of the recent referendum.