If we vote for Brexit what happens

Matt_L

mayonnaise wrote: »

Anyone else getting utterly bored with Clapper's feigned indignation?

I think its refreshing to read his posts and would sooner you posted less;)

Tromking

Matt_L wrote: »

I think its refreshing to read his posts and would sooner you posted less;)

Ditto!....

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Herzlos wrote: »

Am I unpatriotic because I question brexit? We've seen that before too.

Or am I unpatriotic because you believe me to be a foreigner? I do speak German, ja.

Unpatriotic since you refuse to accept fact, as stated in my post.
These facts as demonstrated in this thread relating to the UK and its achievments, what it produces and exports etc..

Anyone, yes even in these forums, can (and indeed do) question Brexit - or anything else, for that matter.
But refusing to accept facts is denialism.

denialism is a person's choice to deny reality

Thanks to Wiki for the definition.


Your nationality BTW is irrelevent in terms of patriotism as is what languages you are able to speak.
Your refusal to accept fact is not.

(FYI I have German-born family members who are more pro-British and patriotic towards the country they live in than many posters in this thread.)

cogito

Moby wrote: »

At least you could be more open about our history! Read up on the activities of the East India company before potificating too much about how the EU exploits Africa!

Aren't we supposed to be living in more enlightened times?

CLAPTON

mayonnaise wrote: »

Anyone else getting utterly bored with Clapper's feigned indignation?

Do you really believe its acceptable to justify the EU bad behavior and discrimination against African countries because the UK was once an imperial power?
Presumably you will wish to add that the current EU discrimination is OK in comparison with a fairly recent period in German history.

Your worship of the holy EU addles your brain.

Herzlos

Patriotism has nothing to do with facts.

That you call it denial of facts, and I call it a different interpretation of them, is the issue here. You think I'm deluded, I think you're deluded, and we're never going to agree.

I really hope you're right, of course, but we'll just need to wait and see.

This is starting to become an echo chamber in here. I'm surprised I don't need to hum Rule Britannia in order to be able to post.

Moby

Conrad wrote: »

Do you not watch documentaries?


In almost every field of Human endeavour across the globe you invariably find a disproportionate British contingent, everything from Polar climate stations to breeding programs re-establishing Iguanas in far flung Caribbean islands, champions of disabled sports, leading the way in film and music, F1, The Premiership, Wimbledon, Satellite tech, bio-tech, sustainable hippy types found in every corner of the world, training the world Officer class at Sandhurst, setting land speed records, free diving, dive masters at thousands of resorts globally, saving rain forests, huge FA budget, unmateched public charity, poetry, 15% of worlds Nobel prizes, the world attends our scientific debates and conferences, the list is endless.


What other nation produces the likes of Attenborough and Dawkins, Hawkins and Feynman in such abundance?


Why does the world adore our stars, Bowie, Jagger even Simon Cowell !!!!!!


The spirit of Empire is alive and well, we're a bloody adventurous can-do spirited lot.


I'm reading Paxmans Empire right now. The same spirit of adventure has not been lost, not at all. Try watching Ben Fogles programmes showing Brits setting up far away safari operations in places like Namibia, with next to no money and becoming masters of all they survey

Your posts are classic examples of confirmation bias. You make the 'facts' fit your belief system and read/watch things that are likely to confirm your bias. You also totally forget that the Empire builders were a narrow elite of privileged landowners or mercantile 'men' who used slavery and military power to exploit the weak and disadvantaged. Read up on the East India company as a good example. Read up on the British in Africa, India, China etc. Also remember the great majority of us British would never experience the benefits of Empire ....the great majority of us would have been working long hours in the new factories or as farm labourers. We wouldnt have had the vote or any rights and when WW1 came we would have been canon fodder sent over the tops of the trenches to fight to protect the interests of the very same elite landowner class holding us in thrall. Your view of history is a romantic fantasy Conrad. We have our fair share of success stories, but these things come and go in waves. The Germans, French, Americans, Australians etc would claim the same in different areas of life. India, China could talk about ancient civilisations when we were still living in mud huts. The thing I've noticed in recent years is the most impressive peoples don't tend to exploit nationalism or patriotism but are those who are able to rise above such suspect qualities and have a more internationalist global outlook on life. We are all interdependent......nationalism is on the rise again for the present but it is for negative reasons. We need to ride out the jingoistic storm, keep perspective and realise that co-operation will achieve far more in the long term than nationalist self promotion.

Moby

CLAPTON wrote: »

I hope that you might reflect on your quite disgusting post and then choose to delete it.

PS: I'm NOT referring to the (incorrect) first sentence.

You dish it out often enough and you get it back from me in spades. Suck it up!;)

Moby

Herzlos wrote: »

Patriotism has nothing to do with facts.

That you call it denial of facts, and I call it a different interpretation of them, is the issue here. You think I'm deluded, I think you're deluded, and we're never going to agree.

I really hope you're right, of course, but we'll just need to wait and see.

This is starting to become an echo chamber in here. I'm surprised I don't need to hum Rule Britannia in order to be able to post.

As Samuel Johnson said ....patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel!;)

Conrad

Moby wrote: »

Your posts are classic examples of confirmation bias. You make the 'facts' fit your belief system and read/watch things that are likely to confirm your bias. You also totally forget that the Empire builders were a narrow elite of privileged landowners or mercantile 'men' who used slavery and military power to exploit the weak and disadvantaged. Read up on the East India company as a good example. Read up on the British in Africa, India, China etc. Also remember the great majority of us British would never experience the benefits of Empire ....the great majority of us would have been working long hours in the new factories or as farm labourers. We wouldnt have had the vote or any rights and when WW1 came we would have been canon fodder sent over the tops of the trenches to fight to protect the interests of the very same elite landowner class holding us in thrall. Your view of history is a romantic fantasy Conrad. We have our fair share of success stories, but these things come and go in waves. The Germans, French, Americans, Australians etc would claim the same in different areas of life. India, China could talk about ancient civilisations when we were still living in mud huts. The thing I've noticed in recent years is the most impressive peoples don't tend to exploit nationalism or patriotism but are those who are able to rise above such suspect qualities and have a more internationalist global outlook on life. We are all interdependent......nationalism is on the rise again for the present but it is for negative reasons. We need to ride out the jingoistic storm, keep perspective and realise that co-operation will achieve far more in the long term than nationalist self promotion.

The Empire of course had downsides and brutality, but that's not the debate. The debate is whether we as a nation still posses the potency and spirit to really thrive globally, I say we do.

Incidentally for all its ills the Empire helped make Britain the nation she is today and gave us all the rich furbishments we took for granted as kids, but let's not go down the route of whether the Emoire was good or bad, I am interested in our capability and energies today