If we vote for Brexit what happens

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

"the EU" aren't done with trying to salvage CETA.

Good for them.

As that's sort of the entire point of democracy and politics...

The UK has repeatedly over the years negotiated changes to EU agreements to protect UK interests or get better terms - backed up by the threat of a veto.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

So sovereignty is conditional upon following the rules made by qualified majority voting including 27 other nations?

Therefore you're not sovereign whilst you're a member of the club, you are beholden to the majority, correct? You cannot simply remain a member and choose to do as you please can you?

Lets not try to twist it. Whilst you're a member of the EU, you cannot be sovereign without leaving the EU, therefore, you are not sovereign within it.

You are fully sovereign within some areas, and as with any trade deal or treaty, sovereignty is pooled within other areas.

But ultimate sovereignty always rests with the EU member state as the member state can choose to withdraw from the EU at any time.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Well that's sort of the point of democracy and politics...

The UK has repeatedly over the years negotiated changes to EU agreements to protect UK interests or get better terms - backed up by the threat of a veto.

YOU may call it "negotiated changes". (What the EU does with non-compliant member states, that is.)
Others call it "threaten" or "bribe".

TrickyTree83

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

You are fully sovereign within some areas, and as with any trade deal or treaty, sovereignty is pooled within other areas.

But ultimate sovereignty always rests with the EU member state as the member state can choose to withdraw from the EU at any time.

Ah so fully sovereign - but only in parts of legislation, now counts as fully sovereign nation?

I must have missed that retrospective update to the Oxford English Dictionary.

You can't make it up as you go along. A nation is either fully, or not sovereign.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sovereign

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sovereign_state

Do you need any more?

Are you wrong?

A_Medium_Size_Jock

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Good for them.

As that's sort of the entire point of democracy and politics...

The UK has repeatedly over the years negotiated changes to EU agreements to protect UK interests or get better terms - backed up by the threat of a veto.

Yes, how very "democratic" of the EU to (ahem) "persuade" Wallonia to ratify CETA.

Just like the EU "persuaded" Cyprus to allow talks with Turkey, eh?
Or how the EU "persuaded" Lithuania to lift it's veto re: EU/Russia treaty negotiations in 2008?
Or many, many more EU "persuasions".
Democracy?
Yeah, right.
POWER.
That is what the EU wants (and wields); POWER.

TrickyTree83

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Wow - the cognitive dissonance being displayed by some of you in this thread is absolutely remarkable.

You've collectively gone from a pre-Brexit vote position of....

- The EU is undemocratic and authoritarian

- France and Germany dominate everyone else

and

- Politicians can never be trusted to use a veto in their national interests

All the way to the current position which now seems to have changed 180 degrees to....

- Democracy is bad

- The EU offers too much control to individual countries

and

- Vetoes are used too often

Honestly - you couldn't make it up!!! :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Do you want so spread this debunked debate to this thread too?

setmefree2

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Wow - the cognitive dissonance being displayed by some of you in this thread is absolutely remarkable.

You've collectively gone from a pre-Brexit vote position of....

- The EU is undemocratic and authoritarian

- France and Germany dominate everyone else

and

- Politicians can never be trusted to use a veto in their national interests

All the way to the current position which now seems to have changed 180 degrees to....

- Democracy is bad

- The EU offers too much control to individual countries

and

- Vetoes are used too often

Honestly - you couldn't make it up!!! :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Hamish you have changed your mind on independence - does that mean you have to turn nasty?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

setmefree2 wrote: »

Hamish you have changed your mind on independence -

When the facts change I change my mind.

What do you do?

does that mean you have to turn nasty?

All I do is hold up the mirror....

What people see in it is entirely up to them.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Ah so fully sovereign - but only in parts of legislation, now counts as fully sovereign nation?

All nation states choose to pool or share elements of sovereignty with every treaty or trade agreement they sign.

The question of sovereignty rests ultimately with whether or not that state has the power to withdraw from those treaties or agreements should it so choose.

The decision to Brexit is by definition proof that ultimate sovereignty rests with the UK even as a member of the EU.

As has frequently been pointed out - the EU forced us to do nothing as we could leave the EU at any time.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

As has frequently been pointed out - the EU forced us to do nothing as we could leave the EU at any time.

Really Hamish?
Are you suggesting that we really don't need to worry about Article 50, negotiations etc; and threats from various EU politicos that they will "make life difficult" for the UK then?