If we vote for Brexit what happens

Masomnia

I believe the issue here is that council housing is based on need (as it should be), but that if you're a recently arrived Somalian refugee (other third world hell holes are available) then you're deemed to be more in need than a local who, though they've lived in the area for years, has a roof over their heads already even if it is not ideal.

It's up for debate whether that is fair or not.

Yamumuk

Thrugelmir wrote: »

That's opinion not fact and misses the point that Brexit wasn't political. It was a rejection by the average Joe Public of the culture being created by the EU political vision. Unlike the EU , Governments are accountable and can be voted out at least every 5 years. Impose rules on people i.e. uncontrolled immigration and you'll get their backs up. That's human nature.

Tories helping the worst off is like a unicorn.. we have heard about it but no one has ever seen it. Borrowed that off the radio just now.:cool:

VEry well said Herzlos.

cells

CLAPTON wrote: »

ridiculous

but a very eloquent argument for tariffs on all goods : once we leave the EU we will be able to do that even if it is absurd.

what is ridiculous about it?

If we remove sugar tariffs we may see a near instant collapse of the beet sugar farmers and processors in the uk. I doubt we will see just as fast a increase in new or additional exports elsewhere to make up for it

Like I said probably good long term but painful short term.

cells

cogito wrote: »

You might want to read this article which explains how the CAP has almost destroyed our sugar industry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9904266/The-EUs-sugar-ruling-thats-left-a-bitter-taste-at-Tate-and-Lyle.html

that link does not say anything like what you suggest

It says tate wants to import more sugar cane. Well if post brexit tate is able to import more sugar cane to make more sugar are the British just going to eat more sugar as tate can now import more sugar cane to make more white sugar??

no of course not, what tate imports will be offset pretty much 1 to 1 with what British farmers grow as sugar beets. Those farmers will have to lose their sugar beet busienss and the british sugar beet factories will have to close or get smaller


we probably should reduce sugar duties once out of the EU. great tate will benefit and increase production but dont forget or ignore the otherside which is that british sugar beet growers wont grow sugar beet anymore. we will be replacing domestic sugar with more imports from brazil thats probably not what you had in mind

The_Last_Username

cells wrote: »

what is ridiculous about it?

If we remove sugar tariffs we may see a near instant collapse of the beet sugar farmers and processors in the uk. I doubt we will see just as fast a increase in new or additional exports elsewhere to make up for it

Like I said probably good long term but painful short term.

Ah.
I see you know as little about sugar beet as you do about economics.

Well firstly, UK sugar beet is harvested and processed normally from September to January.
So the suggestion that reducing UK sugar beet production would lead to this "collapse" is disingenuous at best; beet farmers would diversify and processors would do what they usually do at other times of the year.

Secondly, this disparity and the major cause of using beet was French in origin;

The CAP is massively biased towards sugar beet because it is grown in Europe, and the world’s largest beet producer, France, is the country whose farmers have traditionally dictated the policy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9904266/The-EUs-sugar-ruling-thats-left-a-bitter-taste-at-Tate-and-Lyle.html

So it is the fault of the EU that so much sugar beet is used - and the EU plans to make it even more difficult for cane producers:

an EU reform now threatens disaster for these farmers. In 2017, a cap on European sugar beet production will be lifted, making it much harder for sugar cane farmers in African, Caribbean and Pacific (APC) and Least Developed Countries (LDC) to compete with European sugar beet farmers.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/fairtrade-partner-zone/2015/feb/27/why-businesses-should-stand-by-the-sugar-farmers-failed-by-the-eu

The price farmers receive for sugar beet has frequently been the subject of debate and - though rising next year - has fallen over recent years.
Indeed only EU agricultural policies have encouraged beet growers; farmers find beet not to be very profitable. See:
https://www.fginsight.com/news/how-will-beet-fare-after-brexit-14759

So many growers may well diversify and - if these growers choose wisely - their choices may well more than make up for the perceived loss of sugar beet growth.

As for an increase or new exports; well whatever is grown as an alternative will either relieve imports of whatever new is grown to satisfy our home markets or be exported.
Rendering that point a non-issue.

So in probability, little pain OR gain.

padington

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Peace for 70 years..............
You have GOT to be having a laugh!
That or seriously naive.

Starting with one of the most-recent, look at Ukraine and the Crimea - and try to suggest that events there were not at least partly caused by the EU's planned expansionism.

How about 2008 and Georgia's war with Russia - because Georgia wanted to become more westernised?
Or how about Bosnia?

Now look, I know you may well try to say "Ah but IN Europe" - well fine.
Ignore the atrocities the EU has either caused or ignored on its borders or nearby.
Many of us can not.

If you think that's bad, wait and see what will happen if the union breaks up. Life can get much much worse.

prosaver

just looking at unemployment b4 we joined the EU (1973) and then it started to rise slowly and never been the same since,


..it seems the norm for high employment now ...

cells

prosaver wrote: »

just looking at unemployment b4 we joined the EU (1973) and then it started to rise slowly and never been the same since,


..it seems the norm for high employment now ...

those figures are very misleading, whats more important is long term unemployment those unemployed for 12 months or more

If you are unemployed for 2 weeks that surely is not the same thing as being 'truly unemployed'

The figure for longer term unemployment in the UK is close to 1% now

The_Last_Username

padington wrote: »

If you think that's bad, wait and see what will happen if the union breaks up. Life can get much much worse.

Cheerful soul, aren't you?

BTW not "if the union breaks up" but WHEN.
Even those in positions of power within the EU (including Junckers and Tusk) have openly stated their fear and acknowledge that as a real possibility.

cells

The_Last_Username wrote: »

Ah.
I see you know as little about sugar beet as you do about economics.

Well firstly, UK sugar beet is harvested and processed normally from September to January.
So the suggestion that reducing UK sugar beet production would lead to this "collapse" is disingenuous at best; beet farmers would diversify and processors would do what they usually do at other times of the year.

sure those who cant grow sugar beets might be able to grow something else or get a job elsewhere. That applies to everyone in every industry. It will however certainly mean less sugar produced domestically.

Also the EU CAP haters probably want to see all food tariffs dropped. I think this is a good idea so I am not against it. However how do they come to terms with the fact that cheaper food imports means less domestic food production and lower prices for said producers? In many cases im sure the same people try cry that dairy farmers need to be paid more probably cry that the EU is keeping food prices high.

So it is the fault of the EU that so much sugar beet is used - and the EU plans to make it even more difficult for cane producers:

sugar cane doesnt grow in the EU and its not their 'fault' it is by design that the EU wanted to have its own sugar production so put barriers to foreign sugar. lift those barriers and you will see less sugar produced in the EU and more imported. double true for the UK

The price farmers receive for sugar beet has frequently been the subject of debate and - though rising next year - has fallen over recent years.
Indeed only EU agricultural policies have encouraged beet growers; farmers find beet not to be very profitable. See:/QUOTE]

so what is your argument? that we would import cheap sugar from brazil or not? if we do what happens to the balance of trade and domestic production both of farmers and beet processors in the uk?

So many growers may well diversify and - if these growers choose wisely - their choices may well more than make up for the perceived loss of sugar beet growth.

do you know their business better than them?

If we import out sugar that means no beet farmers, they may instead plant wheat. But if we import more wheat...well you will argue that they might plant oil plants like rapeseed...what if we import more oils? The EU polcies are to encourage domestic farming and production without them we will have less. you cant make some silly argument of oh dont worry will will import cheap sugar but the farmerss will just grow more cabbages

As for an increase or new exports; well whatever is grown as an alternative will either relieve imports of whatever new is grown to satisfy our home markets or be exported.
Rendering that point a non-issue.

So in probability, little pain OR gain.

really seriously?

The uk is a high wage, high land price country. There is no doubt in my mind if we did free trade max and no farming subsidies we will see the farming sector shrink considerably. It wont disappear but it will shrink.