Windows 10 free, a con?

agrinnall

Bedsit_Bob wrote: »

You don't always pay for it. I got it free, on my Medion Netbook.

I think you'll find that the price of the netbook was jacked up to cover the cost of supplying Office, unless it was supplied with an old (probably pre-2010) version.

esuhl

RumRat wrote: »

I'd be more worried about a Tory government passing draconian snooping powers for the intelligence and police forces next week.....
That is far more sinister than anything the tech companies can come up with..
I'd rather trust my stuff to MS or Google and Apple than that untrustworthy bunch sitting in Westminster and their intelligence service lackeys.

Ha! From news reports, it doesn't look like a snooping law is required. There are backdoors for the NSA in Windows OSes since the mid-90s. I imagine the NSA share a lot of data with the Tory government via GCHQ.

http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/27/microsoft_encryption_nsa_spying/

Plenty more stuff here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=windows+nsa+backdoor+OR+agreement

debitcardmayhem

RumRat wrote: »

I'd be more worried about a Tory government passing draconian snooping powers for the intelligence and police forces next week.....
That is far more sinister than anything the tech companies can come up with..
I'd rather trust my stuff to MS or Google and Apple than that untrustworthy bunch sitting in Westminster and their intelligence service lackeys.

esuhl wrote: »

Ha! From news reports, it doesn't look like a snooping law is required. There are backdoors for the NSA in Windows OSes since the mid-90s. I imagine the NSA share a lot of data with the Tory government via GCHQ.

http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/27/microsoft_encryption_nsa_spying/

Plenty more stuff here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=windows+nsa+backdoor+OR+agreement

Who needs spies when you have TalkTalk:cool:

prowla

I pointed out that the strategy of the primary link which you posted as evidence of your position is by a known Microsoft evangelist and consists of weak insults and a load of bluster, and I included links to people who are outright calling the person a liar whose word cannot be trusted.

As far as judgement goes, I believe that people should indeed consider both sides of an argument, rather than simply toeing the party line because a Microsoft apologist says they should; I would consider the approach to be exercising good judgement.

So, for the hard of hearing, I say that the Windows 10 defaults are to collect data about you and the licence you agree to gives them permission to; there are mechanisms for turning off some (but not all) of the actions, but these may be reverted by updates (which happen automatically), and so you cannot be sure that you control your information. You don't know how that information is being stored and how it may be used or divulged. Whether or not someone is comfortable with that is a choice which they may make in deciding to use the OS, and their decision should be made on an informed basis, having heard both sides of the story.

RumRat

I pointed out that the strategy of the primary link which you posted as evidence of your position is by a known Microsoft evangelist and consists of weak insults and a load of bluster, and I included links to people who are outright calling the person a liar whose word cannot be trusted.

But, you didn't actually mention the other article on the same subject or actually discuss the content. So, still not sure where the lies are.

As far as judgement goes, I believe that people should indeed consider both sides of an argument, rather than simply toeing the party line because a Microsoft apologist says they should; I would consider the approach to be exercising good judgement.

Again, you just generalize and don't actually say what it is you don't agree with.
You can't say to should consider both sides then just dismiss one side as invalid, without saying exactly what is wrong with points made.

So, for the hard of hearing, I say that the Windows 10 defaults are to collect data about you and the licence you agree to gives them permission to; there are mechanisms for turning off some (but not all) of the actions, but these may be reverted by updates (which happen automatically), and so you cannot be sure that you control your information. You don't know how that information is being stored and how it may be used or divulged. Whether or not someone is comfortable with that is a choice which they may make in deciding to use the OS, and their decision should be made on an informed basis, having heard both sides of the story.

At last, a discussion. I don't disagree in general with that, however, there is a lot of 'may', 'cannot be sure' 'don't know' in the whole subject.
IMO too many people are just going with the blanket 'spying' tag. This just panics them and doesn't result in them looking beyond it.

I talked to a group of 16/17 year old cadets last week and they have an entirely different take on the subject. Most of their life is out there on FB, Instagram, Twitter etc. and there view was that for the services to work as they want them to then the information collected to make it work is fine. Whether, it's Cortana, Siri or Hey Google, MS, Google or Apple, They weren't concerned in anyway. Targeted advertising is just there so they don't have to pay for things.
They seemed to view privacy as something completely different and almost old fashioned. If someone isn't in your space or peering through your bedroom curtains then your privacy is still intact.
I'm not saying I agree with their view entirely, but, it does show that there is a generation coming through with a completely different perspective on the whole issue.

motorguy

esuhl wrote: »

Be warned that the free copy of Windows 10 is just an OEM version, so you can't keep it if you significantly upgrade your PC. Instead you'll have to pay full price for a new copy.

You would just reinstall your original OS, then upgrade again to 10 - assuming you're talking about a hard disk change

stockton_2

RumRat wrote: »

But, you didn't actually mention the other article on the same subject or actually discuss the content. So, still not sure where the lies are.

Again, you just generalize and don't actually say what it is you don't agree with.
You can't say to should consider both sides then just dismiss one side as invalid, without saying exactly what is wrong with points made.

At last, a discussion. I don't disagree in general with that, however, there is a lot of 'may', 'cannot be sure' 'don't know' in the whole subject.
IMO too many people are just going with the blanket 'spying' tag. This just panics them and doesn't result in them looking beyond it.

I talked to a group of 16/17 year old cadets last week and they have an entirely different take on the subject. Most of their life is out there on FB, Instagram, Twitter etc. and there view was that for the services to work as they want them to then the information collected to make it work is fine. Whether, it's Cortana, Siri or Hey Google, MS, Google or Apple, They weren't concerned in anyway. Targeted advertising is just there so they don't have to pay for things.
They seemed to view privacy as something completely different and almost old fashioned. If someone isn't in your space or peering through your bedroom curtains then your privacy is still intact.
I'm not saying I agree with their view entirely, but, it does show that there is a generation coming through with a completely different perspective on the whole issue.

A lot of young people seem to go through a "face-book phase" as far as I can see. Later in life some take steps to delete all traces of their on-line existence. They may also change their mind when they get older and some nagging ex-wife (is there such a thing as an "ex-wife") comes looking for them to share their space. Employers like to look at candidates face book pages to see what they get up to in their private lives. But this is all bye the bye. It is entirely their choice how they engage on the internet.

You seem to be suggesting that intrusion of privacy is the price that people have to pay in order to get their free software. This is because microsoft have to get paid from advertisers. Well, this is how independent television works although, as far as I know, the television companies don't know me, or where I live. There is something rather disconcerting about searching on line for a product and suddenly a pop-up comes on screen telling you about a restaurant a couple of hundred yards away from where you live.

We have really come a full circle in this argument. It started off with a discussion about why Windows 10 was free. If people want free software and are prepared to accept the intrusion into their lives that is their business. Myself I prefer my privacy, or rather I like to choose those to whom I give my personal details. So yes I would prefer to pay for Windows 10 rather than give Carte Blanche to Microsoft to intrude into my life.

It is unfortunate that this debate has become polarized here on MSE. Instead of debating the issues posters have been attacking other posters simply because they have taken a contrary view. There are lots of valid reasons why people want to stay with Windows 7 (if it ain't broke, don't fix it, for one). I have both Windows 10 and Windows 7 running on different machines and I prefer Windows 7. Not because I am from a different generation, or know nothing about computers, or because I am frightened of change. I prefer Windows 7 because it is less complicated, gives me everything I need and is less intrusive than Windows 10.

prowla

RumRat wrote: »

But, you didn't actually mention the other article on the same subject or actually discuss the content. So, still not sure where the lies are.

Again, you just generalize and don't actually say what it is you don't agree with.
You can't say to should consider both sides then just dismiss one side as invalid, without saying exactly what is wrong with points made.

At last, a discussion. I don't disagree in general with that, however, there is a lot of 'may', 'cannot be sure' 'don't know' in the whole subject.
IMO too many people are just going with the blanket 'spying' tag. This just panics them and doesn't result in them looking beyond it.

I talked to a group of 16/17 year old cadets last week and they have an entirely different take on the subject. Most of their life is out there on FB, Instagram, Twitter etc. and there view was that for the services to work as they want them to then the information collected to make it work is fine. Whether, it's Cortana, Siri or Hey Google, MS, Google or Apple, They weren't concerned in anyway. Targeted advertising is just there so they don't have to pay for things.
They seemed to view privacy as something completely different and almost old fashioned. If someone isn't in your space or peering through your bedroom curtains then your privacy is still intact.
I'm not saying I agree with their view entirely, but, it does show that there is a generation coming through with a completely different perspective on the whole issue.

I've said it contains spyware and there is a lot of (internet) chatter about it.

I gave links to sites covering the points, rather than re-printing the information in them.

I've given an opinion on the implications.

Yes, there are unknowns in there, because the implications are unknown; sure Microsoft may have good intentions now (or they may not - we don't know), but the real question should be why do they need the data? If the answer cannot be spelled out, in the open, then the answer is either (a) they don't know, or (b) they won't say.

We should also be questioning whether we trust them to hold and safeguard the data and who (and which countries) have access to it. We've had the recent European Facebook proceedings which have blown the Patriot Act out of the water, and we've had the Talk Talk hack whereby customer data was accessed.

If Microsoft are building spyware into their systems, then that is sure as heck a beacon for would-be hackers to target.

Should it really be necessary to have to immediately dive under the bonnet of a general-purpose OS to make it safe to use?

So yes, there are concerns, and the tactic of attacking people who are voicing them or raising them as a discussion point is unhelpful.

RumRat

prowla wrote: »

So yes, there are concerns, and the tactic of attacking people who are voicing them or raising them as a discussion point is unhelpful.

Seems there are some double standards there, but, I forgive you..
This seems to have run it's course and hopefully it will have given people an opportunity to look deeper and decide what they want and don't want.
At the end of the day, it's always going to be a personal choice and no one would deny that to any user.

esuhl

motorguy wrote: »

You would just reinstall your original OS, then upgrade again to 10 - assuming you're talking about a hard disk change

I meant a major change -- a replacement motherboard, for example. You'd be unable to upgrade to Windows 10 without paying for a new licence.