Software annual fee not mentioned until after sale

darrenlittlewood

PenguinJim wrote: »

Even as a consumer, yes, I look at the terms and conditions with any significant purchase (iPhone, computer, car, bed, oven etc). Certainly if I didn't understand some legalese within them I'd request clarification from someone with more knowledge in that field - a lawyer, for example. If I lack either the time or the understanding to read through a full contract, I don't just pretend it doesn't exist!

Are you now saying you skipped reading the T&Cs completely, AND didn't even pass them onto your company's legal team to check through?

jim please read the thread before replying or it will get cluttered with peoples opinions and no useful information, these sites rely on people helping each other no preaching, thankyou.

photome

OP did you read Wealdroms well thought out and well written post

darrenlittlewood

wealdroam wrote: »

As has already been said, The Sale of Goods Act offers more protection to a consumer when purchasing from a business, so it could be argued that it is perhaps less important to read all T&Cs in those situations*.



When selling to consumers, there is The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.



If you do go down that rule, I would urge you to have a clear understanding on what you are claiming that the seller did wrong, and exactly what law they have broken.

You might like to read MSE's Small Claims Court guide.

The first paragraph of that document is:

...and later on it says:

In other words, even if the judge thinks the contract term is unfair, he cannot decide in your favour if there is no law to back that view up.



*please do not think that I am saying there is no need to read T&Cs in business to consumer cases. It is always important to read T&Cs, but it is more important for the business purchaser.

Hi Weald... I have been to small claims many times, Barclays, Vodafone etc and always won, so yes I understand how it works.

I was hoping to find out here if a law has been broken, but it appears nobody really knows.

This service fee will cost me over £3500 over the next 10 years on top of the £1500 already spent, So a SCC fee is not an issue - obviously I will be clear on the legalities before going to court.

and for the last time....THE ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT T&C IT IS ABOUT A COMPANY KNOWINGLY AND DELIBERATELY MAKING ATTEMPTS TO CONCEAL COSTS FROM THE CONSUMER, BUSINESS OR OTHERWISE..... is it illegal or not?

darrenlittlewood

"The Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory
Reform are introducing new regulations to clamp down on unfair
sales and marketing practices. They are designed to protect
consumers and honest businesses. Everyone who deals with
consumers will be affected including retailers, builders and
second-hand motor traders.
Many detailed rules around trade descriptions and misleading
price indications are being replaced with a general ban on unfair
trading. This broadly means traders will have to act in a way
that enables the average consumer to make free and informed
purchasing decisions.
In addition, they will put a stop to aggressive selling techniques
and misinforming and misleading people about products or
services. You’ll find these, the practices they cover and some
examples at the end of this booklet. "

darrenlittlewood

photome wrote: »

OP did you read Wealdroms well thought out and well written post

yes... thanks!....

If I can be sure what the law says then I can at least put pressure on the seller to resolve this matter.

darrenlittlewood

Collabora wrote: »

Check any review site/forum and you will find people will post reviews if they think they have been wronged or have a grievance, but very few will post positive reviews.

Just look over MSE forum and check companies being praised to companies being put down

they have many reviews that are excellent, all posted over a very short period of time!!!... the point was that other people have left feeling these costs were covered up/concealed before purchase.

darrenlittlewood

maybe I will find answers here:

5. What are the rules on misleading marketing when selling to other businesses?

Business-to-business trading is covered by the Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Regulations. These ban misleading 'advertising' which is likely to deceive. This includes providing misleading information about the product, its price, the terms of supply or the supplier.

The regulations provide specific conditions on comparative advertising, including a requirement that any comparative advertising should not be misleading.

darrenlittlewood

Prohibition of advertising which misleads traders

(3) In determining whether advertising is misleading, account shall be taken of all its features,
(b) the price or manner in which the price is calculated;

PART 2
OFFENCES
Misleading advertising
6. A trader is guilty of an offence if he engages in advertising which is misleading under
regulation 3.

daytona0

darrenlittlewood wrote: »

Hi Weald... I have been to small claims many times, Barclays, Vodafone etc and always won, so yes I understand how it works.

I was hoping to find out here if a law has been broken, but it appears nobody really knows.

This service fee will cost me over £3500 over the next 10 years on top of the £1500 already spent, So a SCC fee is not an issue - obviously I will be clear on the legalities before going to court.

and for the last time....THE ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT T&C IT IS ABOUT A COMPANY KNOWINGLY AND DELIBERATELY MAKING ATTEMPTS TO CONCEAL COSTS FROM THE CONSUMER, BUSINESS OR OTHERWISE..... is it illegal or not?

I think you are missing the points.

1. Rights are limited if you act in the course of business, and you are not strictly considered a "consumer". People on this forum are generally not geared towards "business rights" advice so you'll probably not get as much help as you want. Better to approach an independent body to see what they say

2. The information you have been given already, even the criticism, is perfectly relevant

3. All I can add to this to maybe ask for a transcript of your phone call with the company. This will be a nice little bit of evidence to support your case. Otherwise you may end up in a "your word against theirs" situation - and with them having T's and C's on their website outlining such a cost then you're pretty much bummed.

4. As previously said, you should take more care in the future when making large outlays for a new EPOS system

5. You've mentioned a string of small claims cases you've won.... Now this PROBABLY means you are one of two types of people: A fighter or a very unlucky person. To elaborate, a fighter is someone who creates a mess (ie doesn't read terms and conditions) for the pure reason that they want to fight the company (as opposed to ensuring that their business prospers with the new EPOS system). Not many people people engage with small claims court multiple times so you are probably a slight anomaly in that respect

agrinnall

Never having felt the need to take anybody to the Small Claims court I bow to your superior knowledge, but continuing to make the argument that the cost has been concealed from you is clearly ridiculous when it is staring you in the face in the T&C's. It is your responsibility to read and understand them; had it been a consumer purchase then you could perhaps make a case that you should have been made aware of the ongoing cost more explicitly, but as a business I would say you have little or no case.