Software annual fee not mentioned until after sale

lucy03

darrenlittlewood wrote: »

yeah, as long as you get away with it then any sort of behaviour is fine... especially making profit

A business really has to ask questions though to ensure it's content with the purchase and for a large purchase it would be usual to get legal advice. They're realistically the two options, either read the terms and conditions in full or get legal advice.

If a business buyer doesn't read the terms & conditions and doesn't get legal advice then they're taking a substantial risk. IMO the seller hasn't acted in an unreasonable manner because the prices are very clear in the terms & conditions and would have been picked up easily on first reading. I've seen contracts containing almost hidden terms which were worded in a very convoluted manner (normally in the middle of vast chunks of text) which would more likely be only picked up by legal advice and those are more questionable IMO.

darrenlittlewood

daytona0 wrote: »

Don't take reviews as gospel. A good portion of them can be cranks who have posted in spite of concrete information being present. I love checking my old company's reviews, particularly the customers who were "wronged" by me personally - in truth they were over-estimating their rights and/or being idiots. You never get the glowing positive reviews left on trust pilot and it will always be skewed in a negative way. ONLY pay attention if there a a few within a short space of time (chop shop), or if they have a long list of complaints. Otherwise, I'd be inclined to take any such review as a pinch of salt and review the reasons as to why you did not google the company and locate the T's and C's which other users have quoted to you. Failing that, give me your mobile number and I'll cold call you and flog you a "better EPOS" over the phone, just have your credit card ready (or shall we just assume that doing business over the phone without checking the company website/T's and C's is probably not the smartest of moves). Maybe you can even cancel the contract?

I researched the company thoroughly, but as I said I was purchasing a system outright so of course it never crossed my mind that I was buying a temporary license. I quizzed the sales team at great length and as far as I am concerned they went out of their way to conceal these charges. If the company was being upfront then they would include these details on other pages of their website and brochures.

You clearly didn't read my post, I paid for the epos system over the phone but correspondence was done in writing....

darrenlittlewood

lucy03 wrote: »

A business really has to ask questions though to ensure it's content with the purchase and for a large purchase it would be usual to get legal advice. They're realistically the two options, either read the terms and conditions in full or get legal advice.

If a business buyer doesn't read the terms & conditions and doesn't get legal advice then they're taking a substantial risk. IMO the seller hasn't acted in an unreasonable manner because the prices are very clear in the terms & conditions and would have been picked up easily on first reading. I've seen contracts containing almost hidden terms which were worded in a very convoluted manner (normally in the middle of vast chunks of text) which would more likely be only picked up by legal advice and those are more questionable IMO.

the sales team made it very clear I was purchasing the system outright, at no point was a contract discussed, I was mis-led, why else do they hide the costs...

If I was leasing a machine or renting then of course I would look at the contract, do you look at the terms and conditions when you buy an iphone, do you ring a lawyer when you buy a computer??? of course not

darrenlittlewood

So the next question is this...

even though it is in the T&C is there anything wrong, from a legal standing, with the company trying to hide or conceal extra costs until after purchase...

I will take this to a small claims anyway because I know they did deliberately conceal or at least knowingly avoid mentioning these costs. In my mind that is wrong and even if I lose my small claims costs and a day of my time I would like to make that point.

wealdroam

darrenlittlewood wrote: »

...do you look at the terms and conditions when you buy an iphone, do you ring a lawyer when you buy a computer??? of course not

As has already been said, The Sale of Goods Act offers more protection to a consumer when purchasing from a business, so it could be argued that it is perhaps less important to read all T&Cs in those situations*.

darrenlittlewood wrote: »

...
even though it is in the T&C is there anything wrong, from a legal standing, with the company trying to hide or conceal extra costs until after purchase...

When selling to consumers, there is The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

darrenlittlewood wrote: »

I will take this to a small claims anyway because I know they did deliberately conceal or at least knowingly avoid mentioning these costs. In my mind that is wrong and even if I lose my small claims costs and a day of my time I would like to make that point.

If you do go down that rule, I would urge you to have a clear understanding on what you are claiming that the seller did wrong, and exactly what law they have broken.

You might like to read MSE's Small Claims Court guide.

The first paragraph of that document is:

The small claims court is the low-hassle way to take legal action for up to £10,000 against a firm or individual. But be confident you've got a case before you start as new fees mean you'll now pay twice as much if you lose.

...and later on it says:

You can make a claim to the small claims court for most breach of contract claims (but don't forget that winning is a different matter), but it will be judged based on the law.

In other words, even if the judge thinks the contract term is unfair, he cannot decide in your favour if there is no law to back that view up.



*please do not think that I am saying there is no need to read T&Cs in business to consumer cases. It is always important to read T&Cs, but it is more important for the business purchaser.

paddyrg

Software needs to be keep updated, or you can get into a situation where it becomes vulnerable to attack, or new services introduced. SaaS (Software as a Service) generally works on this model of annual fees, and frankly £175/year doesn't sound particularly expensive. Whether or not you could reasonably have ascertained that recurrent charge before contacting to use the service is another matter, but as a charge itself it's a darn sight cheaper than many other SaaS subscriptions like Photoshop, Office 365 Pro, Avid, Lightworks, many shopping carts etc. If it includes vat, and includes offsite backup and keeping the software version current with new releases, it might actually be a bargain. Not that that helps when it comes as a shock, but may help soften the blow in retrospect.

PenguinJim

darrenlittlewood wrote: »

If I was leasing a machine or renting then of course I would look at the contract, do you look at the terms and conditions when you buy an iphone, do you ring a lawyer when you buy a computer??? of course not

Even as a consumer, yes, I look at the terms and conditions with any significant purchase (iPhone, computer, car, bed, oven etc). Certainly if I didn't understand some legalese within them I'd request clarification from someone with more knowledge in that field - a lawyer, for example. If I lack either the time or the understanding to read through a full contract, I don't just pretend it doesn't exist!

Are you now saying you skipped reading the T&Cs completely, AND didn't even pass them onto your company's legal team to check through?

darrenlittlewood

paddyrg wrote: »

Software needs to be keep updated, or you can get into a situation where it becomes vulnerable to attack, or new services introduced. SaaS (Software as a Service) generally works on this model of annual fees, and frankly £175/year doesn't sound particularly expensive. Whether or not you could reasonably have ascertained that recurrent charge before contacting to use the service is another matter, but as a charge itself it's a darn sight cheaper than many other SaaS subscriptions like Photoshop, Office 365 Pro, Avid, Lightworks, many shopping carts etc. If it includes vat, and includes offsite backup and keeping the software version current with new releases, it might actually be a bargain. Not that that helps when it comes as a shock, but may help soften the blow in retrospect.

you are missing the point, it's concealing the costs that is the issue so I could not make an informed decision.

Secondly, its a database of items I sell... that does not need to be updated, the anti-virus software it uses is not theirs anyway

Don't plit hairs, the question is, was there anything wrong, in law, for a business to business sale in hiding or attempting to conceal the real costs

darrenlittlewood

PenguinJim wrote: »

Even as a consumer, yes, I look at the terms and conditions with any significant purchase (iPhone, computer, car, bed, oven etc). Certainly if I didn't understand some legalese within them I'd request clarification from someone with more knowledge in that field - a lawyer, for example. If I lack either the time or the understanding to read through a full contract, I don't just pretend it doesn't exist!

Are you now saying you skipped reading the T&Cs completely, AND didn't even pass them onto your company's legal team to check through?

Jim please read threads before making comment.

darrenlittlewood

Ok.... can people on reply to the thread with useful information... This is not a thread for you all to get on your soapboxes.

HAS ANY LAW BEEN BROKEN IF A COMPANY KNOWINGLY TRIES TO CONCEAL EXTRA COSTS...