Elderly relative

Hopalong1

Errata wrote: »

How much is the FA charging for visits? And how often do they occur?

Hello Errata


Erm, call me stupid, they charge?


I am stupid, of course he must, as far as I know he has visited once since this all happened, but I have no idea how often he has in the past.


Our relative just said he brought grapes, how much he enjoyed his visit, oh and signed papers, and none of us know what for, (face palm moment). We just thought this is our relative's business and not our business to enquire.


At the time we took him at face value that he was our relative's friend, he wanted to help, etc., etc., ..... : (


So more sleepless nights until we get POA and have the right to ask. Also forgot to ask relative to telephone FA for copies. Definitely not thinking straight, too many sleepless nights worrying about him coming out to his appalling home, trying to get it fixed, visiting relative, sorting stuff out...

z.n

When A goes home he will have the carers. Also, can he not have a cleaner once a week. And rather than rush around doing his cooking for him try letting him keep his independence by looking into home delivered frozen meals. Wiltshire Farm Food have been mentioned on this site a number of times and many people find them a real boon. A family member gets a delivery once a week- orders are taken over the phone and the staff are really very nice and patient. It does require an ability to operate a microwave/heat in oven though (if A had problems the carers would help with this). The benefit is that there is a good hot meal easy to prepare and suitable for one person on their own. There is a wide choice and A would be in charge of his own meals.

Don't try to take away A's independence without giving it a try- if he wants to be home then try to make that happen. With a bit of extra support (carers for example can be responsible for making sure someone takes their medication on time/prescriptions are filled etc- in fact that is often a significant part of their job and they are very careful to fulfil it) he might be able to manage and be comfortable. It all depends on the care package agreed and the quality of the carers. If A is paying privately for them then he will have a say- and could even pay for some extra time if that was deisrable. Don't assume that the strain on you will continue- it will ease as things are sorted and a new routine put in place.

And of course, if everything falls apart then you can move to option B. I just wonder if you are giving the impression to the IFA that you actively want A to remain in care- that is sort of coming through from your posts. Just being devil's advocate here but the IFA might genuinely want to support A's desire to get home and might also have a different view of his ability to cope-or at least, like me, feel that it is important to at least give it a go. In that situation you would appear to be the financially grasping party (rushing through POA, asking about the money etc) and the IFA might be resistant to helping you. Have SS spoken to the IFA as that would give a legal seal of approval on your actions so far- if not it might help if they did so?? Just in case there is just a miscommunication going on (and a lack of urgency on the IFA part.)

If A's money has disappeared then there will be compensation options via the regulator- but SS would fund the cost of the carers meanwhile etc. But you would have a problem with the cost of the work on the house. Given the IFA's production of a cheap workman I would be concerned too. The price is too convenient and too low to be true. Good quality work will come at a fair price (which seems to be roughly three times what this chap is charging.) But there is a chance it is genuine.

I think you need to know asap how much money there is- and hope there is enough to cover the immediate work. Otherwise you are in a pickle. Oh what a muddle! Get the solicitor who is dealing with the POA to write a letter to the IFA - a small hope is that you are stuck in a Data Protection Act conundrum where IFA won't disclose info to you but A cannot ask because he might not have capacity (completely circular.) A solicitor might be able to break the deadlock or at least establish if that is the immediate problem.

Best wishes.

Errata

Have SS spoken to the IFA as that would give a legal seal of approval on your actions so far- if not it might help if they did so??

SS are no more likely to speak to the IFA than they would speak to the the elderly chap's bank. It sometimes takes them all their time to speak to the relatives of a client.

Hopalong1

z.n wrote: »

When A goes home he will have the carers. Also, can he not have a cleaner once a week. And rather than rush around doing his cooking for him try letting him keep his independence by looking into home delivered frozen meals. Wiltshire Farm Food have been mentioned on this site a number of times and many people find them a real boon. A family member gets a delivery once a week- orders are taken over the phone and the staff are really very nice and patient. It does require an ability to operate a microwave/heat in oven though (if A had problems the carers would help with this). The benefit is that there is a good hot meal easy to prepare and suitable for one person on their own. There is a wide choice and A would be in charge of his own meals.

Don't try to take away A's independence without giving it a try- if he wants to be home then try to make that happen. With a bit of extra support (carers for example can be responsible for making sure someone takes their medication on time/prescriptions are filled etc- in fact that is often a significant part of their job and they are very careful to fulfil it) he might be able to manage and be comfortable. It all depends on the care package agreed and the quality of the carers. If A is paying privately for them then he will have a say- and could even pay for some extra time if that was deisrable. Don't assume that the strain on you will continue- it will ease as things are sorted and a new routine put in place.

And of course, if everything falls apart then you can move to option B. I just wonder if you are giving the impression to the IFA that you actively want A to remain in care- that is sort of coming through from your posts. Just being devil's advocate here but the IFA might genuinely want to support A's desire to get home and might also have a different view of his ability to cope-or at least, like me, feel that it is important to at least give it a go. In that situation you would appear to be the financially grasping party (rushing through POA, asking about the money etc) and the IFA might be resistant to helping you. Have SS spoken to the IFA as that would give a legal seal of approval on your actions so far- if not it might help if they did so?? Just in case there is just a miscommunication going on (and a lack of urgency on the IFA part.)

If A's money has disappeared then there will be compensation options via the regulator- but SS would fund the cost of the carers meanwhile etc. But you would have a problem with the cost of the work on the house. Given the IFA's production of a cheap workman I would be concerned too. The price is too convenient and too low to be true. Good quality work will come at a fair price (which seems to be roughly three times what this chap is charging.) But there is a chance it is genuine.

I think you need to know asap how much money there is- and hope there is enough to cover the immediate work. Otherwise you are in a pickle. Oh what a muddle! Get the solicitor who is dealing with the POA to write a letter to the IFA - a small hope is that you are stuck in a Data Protection Act conundrum where IFA won't disclose info to you but A cannot ask because he might not have capacity (completely circular.) A solicitor might be able to break the deadlock or at least establish if that is the immediate problem.

Best wishes.

Hello z_n


Thank you, it is really helping having another perspective.


I have suggested all the above help e.g. Wiltshire foods, etc., but he is saying he doesn't need carers at all, will heat his own groceries up if we get a microwave for him (which we have said we will do), all before the home visit and we found out how he wasn't coping at home...


All along we haven't done anything about his own finances, as we felt it was his own personal business, just wanted to help him be independent as possible at home. And again, respecting client/FA confidentiality, never discussed this with our relative.


It's only in the last week or so we have begun worrying about the odd things the FA has said, but we were considering POA as relative seemed so poorly in hospital, as a way to make sure his renovations could still be done for him, in hope that he would improve (as he fortunately has).


Our first instinct is looking after his mental and physical health and not bother with finances. It's only SS stating concern when we tried to gather info (with relative's permission), for his financial means test on home fee's, that they felt he shouldn't have majority of savings invested in shares.


Quite honestly I would be happy for an independent third party to take care of his finances so we don't have to worry. I do appreciate that the FA may be totally above board and simply doing his duty for his client's interest. This is why I am trying not to worry as we don't know, and neither does our relative, exactly what he has in shares, and what he might need for residential fees, apart from home renovation fees.


I guess I need to step back and stop worrying, and see how our relative will cope once his home is in better shape, and see if he changes his mind about having carer's.


I am just a worrier, hoping that if he agrees now to carer's then it can be done instantly for him, rather than him refusing and then having to wait for it to be set up again if he realises he can't cope..... : (


I don't want to remove his independence, and I certainly won't force him to stay in the residential home, it's only that I can see how much he has improved in there that I hope he will stay.

z.n

I am a worrier too OP! Your relative is lucky to have you looking out for him. Just be careful not to enter into any commitments or expense that might not be covered by A if the money is not there. Hopefully it will all come clear soon.

Errata

z.n wrote: »

I am a worrier too OP! Your relative is lucky to have you looking out for him. Just be careful not to enter into any commitments or expense that might not be covered by A if the money is not there. Hopefully it will all come clear soon.

That's a very important point, given the amount of repair and replace work that needs to be done to make the house habitable.

Hopalong1

Errata wrote: »

That's a very important point, given the amount of repair and replace work that needs to be done to make the house habitable.

Hello z_n & Errata


Yes, this is why we are going for POA in the first place, as another relative has had a similar experience.


Just the financial cost of repairing and modernising his home (which he has many times said he has the savings for, just not the motivation to get it done), is something that we couldn't cover ourselves.


He gave us permission to bring his bank statement to him in hospital with his cheque book, to show he had enough to cover the main works. But what made us uncomfortable is he signed a blank cheque over to us, to transfer funds to our own account, and then pay for work.


Now it's touching that he trusts us but, I really don't like doing that, it's his money. As his POA, I can sign a cheque from his account for works directly, without any transfers needed. Our worse fear was that if he became incapable of managing his affairs, work would be halted before completion. Leaving him and us in a right mess.


Researching into it, it means he has legal rights and protections in place, and we can sort his renovations out legally. I have also told him it doesn't mean he is giving up any responsibility or independence, as we are gathering together lots of quotes, going over them all together with him, getting him to pick what he wants e.g. style of windows and doors, colours, etc.


Then he gets to decide everything, whilst we do all the running around organising, even down to which tradesmen he wants and how much to spend.


Quite frankly, he said he'd prefer us to pick everything, including the quotes etc. but I think he should be involved at every stage so he knows what it will look like when he gets home.


I also hope it helps keeping his mind sharp and active, just going through the bills and comparing to his last statement, so he knows he's got enough at present and doesn't worry.


If he finds he does want to stay at the home, then, we will have to get into things with the FA. We will probably have to do this anyway, if works aren't completely quickly.


Heck of a lot we are trying to juggle for him, and still trying to persuade him to have carers at home, if he is still determined that's what he wants.....

lilmissreading

What a complicated situation.

OP - you sound like a very caring relative.

Just to say there are two mental capacity issues here:

1) Does he have capacity to sign a POA? - let's hope yes as otherwise it's a lengthy, expensive process to apply for one without his informed consent. Did you know there are two types - one for health and one for finances?

2) Does he have capacity to manage his finances?

If the answer is yes to both then you would not have any legal rights to access details of his finances and things could carry on as they were before. However you would have the POA ready to activate should things change in the future. Temporary illness e.g. dehydration, infection, poor nutrition would not allow a POA to be activated as any decent assessor would be asking whether the ability to have capacity would return in the future. Any glimmer of a yes and they would advise waiting.

If it was yes to one and no to 2 then you could start the process of delving into the finances to see what the IFA had been up to (agree with others that based on what you say, something seems up). Ironically he may be right, a POA is not necessary at the moment but that is no reason for them to advise against getting one ready. When my grandfather had a stroke we (my grandmother) had a devil of a time getting this done and she did hers at this time. The IFA and her solicitor commended her for getting her POA done and it now sits registered with the court in case it's needed.

If it is no to both, you would have to apply to the Office of public Guardian at cost and it would take a long time to sort. Their website has useful pointers (aware you are up against in having any time to look at all this!)

http://www.justice.gov.uk/protecting-the-vulnerable/mental-capacity-act

BTW I would agree with others who say living in unsuitable accommodation does not mean a lack of capacity. The mental capacity act (MCA) specifically respects people's right to make unwise decisions. For example A's reasoning in sound in the sense that I would rather struggle and be uncomfortable physically than have the shame of people know I am not coping. We might not agree and i too would find it upsetting to a relative to choose to live in the way that yours does. However I can't say that the best thing is to spend money on strangers coming into their home and feel ashamed.

Very best to you and yours.

RAS

OP

A couple of suggestions - "carers" sound like a loss of independence. Would he accept a cleaner twice a week or more to do the washing up, cleaning, bed changing, laundry etc?

Also he might find it easier to accept carers on other days if SS etc make it plain that having them for the first few weeks is a condition of going home? That way you and he can work out to what extent he can support himself and what helps he needs?

The other thing to look at is some sort of outing independent of yourselves? Lunch club, even a taxi to the local pub or club that does lunch, once a week?

And think about home delivery of shopping.

Hopalong1

lilmissreading wrote: »

What a complicated situation.

OP - you sound like a very caring relative.

Just to say there are two mental capacity issues here:

1) Does he have capacity to sign a POA? - let's hope yes as otherwise it's a lengthy, expensive process to apply for one without his informed consent. Did you know there are two types - one for health and one for finances?

2) Does he have capacity to manage his finances?

If the answer is yes to both then you would not have any legal rights to access details of his finances and things could carry on as they were before. However you would have the POA ready to activate should things change in the future. Temporary illness e.g. dehydration, infection, poor nutrition would not allow a POA to be activated as any decent assessor would be asking whether the ability to have capacity would return in the future. Any glimmer of a yes and they would advise waiting.

If it was yes to one and no to 2 then you could start the process of delving into the finances to see what the IFA had been up to (agree with others that based on what you say, something seems up). Ironically he may be right, a POA is not necessary at the moment but that is no reason for them to advise against getting one ready. When my grandfather had a stroke we (my grandmother) had a devil of a time getting this done and she did hers at this time. The IFA and her solicitor commended her for getting her POA done and it now sits registered with the court in case it's needed.

If it is no to both, you would have to apply to the Office of public Guardian at cost and it would take a long time to sort. Their website has useful pointers (aware you are up against in having any time to look at all this!)

http://www.justice.gov.uk/protecting-the-vulnerable/mental-capacity-act

BTW I would agree with others who say living in unsuitable accommodation does not mean a lack of capacity. The mental capacity act (MCA) specifically respects people's right to make unwise decisions. For example A's reasoning in sound in the sense that I would rather struggle and be uncomfortable physically than have the shame of people know I am not coping. We might not agree and i too would find it upsetting to a relative to choose to live in the way that yours does. However I can't say that the best thing is to spend money on strangers coming into their home and feel ashamed.

Very best to you and yours.

Hello lilmissreading


Thank you, we are doing our best.


1) According to G.P. and allocated social worker he has now been assessed as having mental capacity. Thank goodness that is one thing sorted. Also, we have asked him if it is ok to be both his health and financial POA in future, to which he has agreed. But we are making very sure that he listens carefully to us about exactly what works are being quoted for, showing him paid bills, total he has left in account so far, etc. as we don't want him to give up responsibility anyway. He has us effectively acting as temporary POA before it is needed just to allow him to renovate his home and get home....


2) Yes. I have already said to him now that we won't need to use POA, only in an emergency situation. However he is still asking us to organise everything for him, effectively acting as POA temporarily until he is home. This does make things tricky to sort out FA, we can only ask our relative to contact FA, and get copies of statements to fill out his financial means test (which again he has asked us to sort out).


So we can go forward with POA for his emergency care at least. 2) might be deemed debatable if it turns out the FA has been abusing his trust. Then we will have to pursue the route of elder abuse, and he might then be re-assessed as not capable of managing his finances... If that happens then the financial aspect of POA would need to be activated.


We are really hoping that none of this will be necessary, we will have POA ready in the background if needed, and we can suggest to our relative that he really should move some of his shares into savings for just such events he is dealing with now. Not that he has to do that, just following social worker's advice, which seems common sense to us.


As to his home, it's such a difficult thing to assess him on, he says he hasn't wanted to spend, so he can leave something for the family. We keep telling him not to do this, he has worked hard all his life, and he is entitled to a decent standard of living, and has contributed in his tax and NI for a lifetime but this is falling on deaf ears.


To be honest I believe he will need to use his shares and home to fund his care, although I don't want to upset him by saying this. He has always saved, in fact he could probably tell us money savers a thing or two, but he has taken it to the worst extreme. Added to this old age, not want stress/hassle/change, and now ill health and I really think he has been over-whelmed.


Really could kick myself for not pushing him to do repairs - if I ever nagged, he would disappear into his home for weeks, no landline anyway, mobile switched off, and we would worry not knowing if he was alive or dead. He only allows us to drop a note in his letterbox and then would ring us - quite eccentric, doing things on his terms. So we had given up trying to help (gave him lovely warm coat, thermal hat, gloves, warm clothes, but he saves those 'for best'; offered to buy shopping trolley to make shopping easier, he refused as they 'were for old people'!; offered to take him shopping/fetch groceries again refused; have taken him on outings and he's been round our home for hot meals and drinks, Christmas, Easter and birthday dinners; won't accept daily hot meals as it's 'charity', and so on).


Sorry to ramble, it's been so hard to help someone who feels that accepting help is tantamount to declaring he can't cope so he refuses. Such a lovely man, but, very stubborn!