Replacing my economical run about car??

darkmatter101

OddballJamie wrote: »

Unless they have two Yaris 1.0s, he may be fronting through his girlfriends insurance.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=66420230&postcount=66

Also he's recommended to others CAT D cars and second hand brake pads, discs and tyres. That should cut costs and add to the fear factor.

No, the Yaris is owned by me so I am not 'fronting.' Also, I never use second hand parts on my E92 M3, neither my Yaris (which I service at the Toyota dealers yearly providing them with superior Castrol 5W-30 FST oil). This was a suggestion for people who are on a budget yet they want the 'flash' of a upper market car.

I am asking for advice on the Civic 1.7 CDTI because I am not sure how these older diesels are with shorter journeys and there isn't too much information online about the 1.7 CDTI Civic.

darkmatter101

Herzlos wrote: »

Plenty of converted M3's (and regular 3's) out there already. No good reason not to if you're doing highish miles - no noticeable performance impact, half the running costs. M3 performance for Yaris running costs.

How many miles are you going to do in the small car? Is it really cheaper to have 2 sets of insurance (one without NCB), tax, mot, tyres, depreciation and servicing than taking the hit on fuel economy?

To be honest I have never seen or heard of anyone converting their M3's to LPG. Quick online search reveals some users who once contemplated converting their older e36/e46 M3's to LPG but seem like other people advised them against it, which makes sense.

Any M car is much more complex than an ordinary car, and fitting LPG to it does not make sense, you will probably be riddled with more problems. Second, people who buy the M3 are not concerned with economy, they expect low mpg and should be able to afford to run such a car. Finally LPG is known to reduce the BHP a little, M3s dont like running on LPG and ruin the weight distribution of the M3 by adding big tank in the boot. don't see why any M driver would want that.

OddballJamie

Palmersport run their M3s on LPG.

Surprised you didn't know, being an M3 forum veteran.

Herzlos

First page of google results for "M3 LPG conversion" are all people who have converted M3's to LPG, including RR results for an E92 - it loses 7bhp* when running on LPG, but you can still run it on petrol.

It's pretty common for older high-end cars to be given the LPG treatment.

As to weight distribution - you're adding under 5% of the cars weight over the back axle, which you can compensate by putting less petrol in, and losing the spare (if it's got one). I bet you couldn't even tell the difference between one with/without the conversion on a track, nevermind a public road.

It's a more advanced engine, but not that much, and it's still possible.

The idea that people would buy an M3 and not want to reduce the running costs is pure snobbery. Pretty foolhardy at that too.

I've only got a 2.5l and the reason I haven't gone the LPG route is that I do almost no mileage so it wouldn't pay for itself.

*423 instead of 430.

Herzlos

darkmatter101 wrote: »

No, the Yaris is owned by me so I am not 'fronting.'

But is insured by your girlfriend (for £700/year), and is used by you during the week for munching miles? That sounds like fronting, unless your girlfriend is doing huge mileages over the weekend.

BeenThroughItAll

darkmatter101 wrote: »

To be honest I have never seen or heard of anyone converting their M3's to LPG. Quick online search reveals some users who once contemplated converting their older e36/e46 M3's to LPG but seem like other people advised them against it, which makes sense.

Any M car is much more complex than an ordinary car, and fitting LPG to it does not make sense, you will probably be riddled with more problems. Second, people who buy the M3 are not concerned with economy, they expect low mpg and should be able to afford to run such a car. Finally LPG is known to reduce the BHP a little, M3s dont like running on LPG and ruin the weight distribution of the M3 by adding big tank in the
boot. don't see why any M driver would want that.

Are you qualified to install Autogas systems? I suspect not.


I am, however, and would like to point out the errors above.


'M' cars are not more complex than ordinary cars; when it comes to LPG, fitting Autogas is nothing more than plumbing, wiring, and programming. Modern programmable ECUs make tuning a car on LPG very straightforward, no more difficult than remapping the original ECU, and I bet you could point to plenty of your M-friends who have remapped their cars.


You've already said you can't find any examples of people converting M3s - but then you say they don't like running on LPG. How do you know? Cars running on Autogas when it is fitted properly and maintained (annual LPG filter changes, leak tests, and diagnostics, basically) produce fewer harmful emissions, and do not generate soot, ash or carbon and hence don't dirty their oil as much, nor do they coke-up combustion chambers, valve seats, etc.


Yes, cars on LPG will see a small power decrease, although few drivers (I know all M3 drivers are driving Gods and therefore this doesn't apply) will ever actually notice the difference. Most modern systems also allow for LPG injection to be run in parallel with, or replaced by primary fuel injection at defined points, for example when RPM rises above a predetermined point, of when WOT is applied, thereby negating the lower specific output.


Your M3 produces, what, 400ish BHP? There are plenty of LPG fuelled vehicles out there producing well in excess of that, so power is not a limiting factor. There have been a number of Autogas-fuelled vehicles entered in race series, including BTCC, and they proved successful enough that there were technical restrictions placed on them to actually decrease performance. I'm sure you believe your M3 is more than a match for a bespoke, custom-engineered race focussed BTCC car, but the evidence is there to suggest that LPG is not a performance inhibitor.


OK, your point about the tank is reasonable, although you should bear in mind that in the *real world* (which I accept you don't seem to care for living in that much) few people will ever notice the 2-3% change in weight distribution. Also, LPG users will tend to run with smaller amounts of primary fuel on-board, thereby negating some of the change created by adding the gas tank. Don't forget, your petrol tank will carry something like 70KG of fuel when full.

darkmatter101

Herzlos wrote: »

But is insured by your girlfriend (for £700/year), and is used by you during the week for munching miles? That sounds like fronting, unless your girlfriend is doing huge mileages over the weekend.

My girlfriend owns the XP10, first generation Yaris. I have the XP90 second generation Yaris. We do not drive each others cars, not sure why you'd think immediately assume that.

darkmatter101

BeenThroughItAll wrote: »

Are you qualified to install Autogas systems? I suspect not.


I am, however, and would like to point out the errors above.


'M' cars are not more complex than ordinary cars; when it comes to LPG, fitting Autogas is nothing more than plumbing, wiring, and programming. Modern programmable ECUs make tuning a car on LPG very straightforward, no more difficult than remapping the original ECU, and I bet you could point to plenty of your M-friends who have remapped their cars.


You've already said you can't find any examples of people converting M3s - but then you say they don't like running on LPG. How do you know? Cars running on Autogas when it is fitted properly and maintained (annual LPG filter changes, leak tests, and diagnostics, basically) produce fewer harmful emissions, and do not generate soot, ash or carbon and hence don't dirty their oil as much, nor do they coke-up combustion chambers, valve seats, etc.


Yes, cars on LPG will see a small power decrease, although few drivers (I know all M3 drivers are driving Gods and therefore this doesn't apply) will ever actually notice the difference. Most modern systems also allow for LPG injection to be run in parallel with, or replaced by primary fuel injection at defined points, for example when RPM rises above a predetermined point, of when WOT is applied, thereby negating the lower specific output.


Your M3 produces, what, 400ish BHP? There are plenty of LPG fuelled vehicles out there producing well in excess of that, so power is not a limiting factor. There have been a number of Autogas-fuelled vehicles entered in race series, including BTCC, and they proved successful enough that there were technical restrictions placed on them to actually decrease performance. I'm sure you believe your M3 is more than a match for a bespoke, custom-engineered race focussed BTCC car, but the evidence is there to suggest that LPG is not a performance inhibitor.


OK, your point about the tank is reasonable, although you should bear in mind that in the *real world* (which I accept you don't seem to care for living in that much) few people will ever notice the 2-3% change in weight distribution. Also, LPG users will tend to run with smaller amounts of primary fuel on-board, thereby negating some of the change created by adding the gas tank. Don't forget, your petrol tank will carry something like 70KG of fuel when full.

As a qualified LPG fitter I take your comments on board. However I still think it doesn't make sense to purchase high performance cars such as the M3 and get it converted to LPG as you'd spend more on the maintenance with the extra miles.

darkmatter101

Herzlos wrote: »

It's a more advanced engine, but not that much, and it's still possible.

It is a MUCH MORE of an advanced engine that any bog standard one you see on the road. The M3 uses racing spec parts, hence why it is able to produce 100 plus HP per litre and red line to 8300 rpm.

Strider590

OddballJamie wrote: »

Palmersport run their M3s on LPG.

Surprised you didn't know, being an M3 forum veteran.

Ok, now to be fair.......

A racing car is nothing like a road going M3, it will stripped right down, it'll have fully adjustable coilover dampers (where the road car does everything with the push of a button). They'll even do things like moving the battery to get even weight distribution.

Which means they can then do something known as "corner weighting", where all 4 corners of the car are weighed with the driver and a half tank of fuel, each damper is then set to exactly compensate for the weight across the whole car so that each corner behaves exactly same every single time it rolls into a corner.

You can't do this in road car, not without throwing out £10'000 worth of leather interior and gadgets.