PCM - Are they an Approved Operator???

lovinituk

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Bazza1975

lovinituk wrote: »

You don't need to create an account for tinypic.com

No probs, I've set up a photobucket account now - so hopefully these links/attachments will work...

Just need to change the hxxp to http

hxxp://s1265.photobucket.com/user/Bazza75/media/Pic1_zpsbcac018d.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

hxxp://s1265.photobucket.com/user/Bazza75/media/IMAG2042_zpseb39f843.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

hxxp://s1265.photobucket.com/user/Bazza75/media/IMAG2041_zpsa5644362.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

Coupon-mad

IPC sign, a newer one attempting to create a contractual fee to be allowed to park:

http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/Bazza75/media/Pic1_zpsbcac018d.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

Nice finger placement!

http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/Bazza75/media/IMAG2042_zpseb39f843.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/Bazza75/media/IMAG2041_zpsa5644362.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1


So wait for the NTK in August. Hopefully they haven't updated their NTK wording yet and it will talk about 'breach of terms'!

Bazza1975

Coupon-mad wrote: »

IPC sign, a newer one attempting to create a contractual fee to be allowed to park:

s1265.photobucket.com/user/Bazza75/media/Pic1_zpsbcac018d.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

Nice finger placement!

s1265.photobucket.com/user/Bazza75/media/IMAG2042_zpseb39f843.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

s1265.photobucket.com/user/Bazza75/media/IMAG2041_zpsa5644362.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1


So wait for the NTK in August. Hopefully they haven't updated their NTK wording yet and it will talk about 'breach of terms'!

haha... I did notice in other threads about not giving too much away - keeper/driver etc.... Hence why I have edited some of my earlier posts.

So are you saying I don't need to do anything for now? Will that not invoke the higher payment? Sorry, this is completely alien to me and I'm stressing about it to be honest.

I'm assuming this is the template letter/email I would need send at some point...??


Dear {company name of this member of ''PPC World''},

PCN number xxxxxxx
I have received your parking 'invoice' impersonating a parking ticket. I decline your invitation to pay or name the driver, neither of which are required of me as the keeper of the vehicle. This is my appeal and all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:

A) The amount is neither a genuine tariff/fee for parking, nor is it based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner.
You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts to drivers nor to bring a claim in your own right.
C) Your signage was not sufficiently prominent nor clearly worded and consideration did not flow from both parties, so there was no contract formed. This is a non-negotiated and totally unexpected third party 'charge' foisted upon legitimate motorists who are not your customers and are not parties of equal bargaining power. Therefore ALL terms are required to be so prominent and the risk of a charge so transparent that the information in its entirety must have been seen/accepted by the driver. No reasonable person would have accepted such onerous parking terms and I contend the extortionate charge was not 'drawn to his attention in the most explicit way' (Lord Denning, Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking Ltd [1971] 2 QB 163, Court of Appeal): 'The customer is bound by those terms as long as they are sufficiently brought to his notice beforehand, but not otherwise. In {ticket cases of former times} the issue...was regarded as an offer by the company. That theory was, of course, a fiction. No customer in a thousand ever read the conditions. In order to give sufficient notice, it would need to be printed in red ink with a red hand pointing to it - or something equally startling.'

As you have failed to create any enforceable contract I suggest that you cancel this unjustified 'ticket'. If not, under your Trade Body's current Code of Practice you must issue a rejection letter which, in order to answer my appeal, must include:

1. The legal basis of your charge, which is not clear (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee?). As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the basis of your allegation.
(i) if alleging breach of contract, please supply a breakdown of your alleged 'loss' and state the intention of your enforcement (i.e. deterrent or revenue?).
(ii) if alleging trespass, enclose evidence of the perpetrator, proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum by the landholder.
(iii) if alleging 'contractual fee' I request a VAT invoice by return and your explanation of how you can allow drivers to park 'in breach' for a fee when your client originally contracted you in order to disallow and deter - not allow and profit from - unauthorised parking. I contend this charge is merely a penalty which is not recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188 (AP476) 21/2/2014 Appeal). Should you try to rely upon ParkingEye v Beavis & Wardley at independent appeal stage, I will of course point out that it was a flawed decision at small claim level so is not binding, and Mr Beavis is continuing his defence to the Court of Appeal. There is clearly no commercial justification for this punitive charge and no case law to support it.

2. Proof of your locus standi to offer contracts to drivers at this site and to bring a claim in your own right for this particular contravention. If you are not the landowner, I will need to see a copy of your contract, showing the restrictions, the charges, the dates and terms of business including any payments between yourself and your client and the definition of your status as agents or contractors and your assigned rights (if any). Such detail is necessary for me to make an informed decision. Failure to divulge your landowner contract (or heavily redacting it) will be deemed as withholding pertinent information and, of course, I will require it to be shown at independent appeal stage anyway. A witness statement will not suffice, nor a site agreement with a managing agent or other party who is not the landowner.

3. Your explanation of the consideration that you believe flowed from the driver, and from yourselves. Consideration from both sides is required for a contract.

4. A copy of the signage site map and close-up pictures of the signs in situ at the time, taken at a comparable time of day in similar light conditions.

5. The means to make an appeal to POPLA or the IAS. This must not be withheld or delayed, which would be a breach of the Code of Practice.

If you fail to simply cancel the charge or supply the means to independent appeal in your first reply you will also be reported to your applicable ATA and the DVLA. A certificate of posting will be obtained for all written communications for this appeal and complaint and I intend to claim my costs when I prevail.

Yours,



{the registered keeper's name}
ADD A SQUIGGLE IF POSTING IT - NO NEED TO USE A REAL SIGNATURE

Coupon-mad

So are you saying I don't need to do anything for now? Will that not invoke the higher payment?

Yep. You won't pay a penny as long as you win at IAS appeal and your BEST BET is to catch them out with the Notice to Keeper! Not waiting for that would be daft and less likely to be a slam-dunk win.

Redx

the threat of higher payments is deliberately designed to entrap you and lure you into paying the earlier and lower exorbitant fee

the trick here is to use legal appeal points to win this at the next appeal stage (if they dont cancel once they see your initial keeper appeal after the NTK arrives)

they could try to charge you £1000 or a million pounds at a later stage if they so wished to, but if you win an appeal or in court then you pay nothing , zilch

so the problem for all members is do you have a "set" and are willing to play them at the words game and save yourself up to £100 by beating them at the appeal stage, or by fronting it out with good appeals will they cave in and cancel ?

this is assuming they can actually control the area the car was parked in

also assumes you cannot find out the landowners name and get them to cancel it

Bazza1975

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Yep. You won't pay a penny as long as you win at IAS appeal and your BEST BET is to catch them out with the Notice to Keeper! Not waiting for that would be daft and less likely to be a slam-dunk win.

Ok, you're confidence is re-assuring but I'm still confused about this NTK. Surely we will still receive a chase up letter for a higher amount as PCM will have access to who the Registered Keeper/Owner is from the DVLA? Are we not supposed to ignore Parking Tickets any more? Or am I missing something?

And is it a guarantee we will win at the IAS appeal if it gets that far? A £60 fine is bad enough, without risking leaving it, losing the appeal, then paying a whole lot more.

Redx

its not a parking ticket, its a speculative invoice

the parking companies wish to entrap the motorist into paying up asap by offering a "discount" , so the top charge minus a discount, that runs out after a certain time period

you wait for the NTK for the reasons outlined in the NEWBIES sticky thread , which may mean that the PPC is of the opinion that you owe them the full exorbitant charge for the invoice , not the discounted one

our argument is you owe them nothing or at best a few pounds , not any of the charges they are bringing about on their paperwork

one argument used is to question the charges in legal format, so not a gpeol or other issues like no contract or poor signage etc

ie:- you make them jump through hoops to present their case and they have to justify all aspects of the invoice they have sent you

there are no guarantees here , they have sent you an invoice for a charge you are querying , in legal terms , if its not justified you win at appeal or in court if it went that far, or if you didnt win you pay what the judge says in his judgement

I see you used the f word again, proving you still havent understood what is happening here (its an invoice, not a fine, only a judge or court of law can fine you)

this appears to be a private road, the signs say its private land and so its not subject to any council enforcement and no warden was present, nor were any fines issued, its all about a private parking company enforcing private parking rules on private land for a landowner or managing agentand subject to the IPC CoP

Coupon-mad

Bazza1975 wrote: »

Ok, you're confidence is re-assuring but I'm still confused about this NTK. Surely we will still receive a chase up letter for a higher amount as PCM will have access to who the Registered Keeper/Owner is from the DVLA? Are we not supposed to ignore Parking Tickets any more? Or am I missing something?

And is it a guarantee we will win at the IAS appeal if it gets that far? A £60 fine is bad enough, without risking leaving it, losing the appeal, then paying a whole lot more.

It's NOT a FINE! And you are missing the fact we've not lost a POPLA appeal - nor an IAS appeal, which are newer but similar - for about 15 months! NONE.

And they can't issue a chase up letter for a higher amount. Under the POFA 2012 they can ONLY pursue the keeper for the PCN amount (but forget the bribe of the discount...please forget it!). They can't add costs or anything.

There's only a 'guarantee' if you pay parkingticketappeals (run by posters here as a business, NOT me) £16 to do it for you, guaranteed, if you are that jumpy about something we've won every day of the past year and a half. If that suits you then do it that way. If you'd rather DIY then we have told you how and you know when/how to appeal. PTA would just do it for you for £16 at their risk (= no risk really and certainly none to you if you sign it over to them to handle).

Bazza1975

Redx wrote: »

its not a parking ticket, its a speculative invoice

the parking companies wish to entrap the motorist into paying up asap by offering a "discount" , so the top charge minus a discount, that runs out after a certain time period

you wait for the NTK for the reasons outlined in the NEWBIES sticky thread , which may mean that the PPC is of the opinion that you owe them the full exorbitant charge for the invoice , not the discounted one

our argument is you owe them nothing or at best a few pounds , not any of the charges they are bringing about on their paperwork

one argument used is to question the charges in legal format, so not a gpeol or other issues like no contract or poor signage etc

ie:- you make them jump through hoops to present their case and they have to justify all aspects of the invoice they have sent you

there are no guarantees here , they have sent you an invoice for a charge you are querying , in legal terms , if its not justified you win at appeal or in court if it went that far, or if you didnt win you pay what the judge says in his judgement

I see you used the f word again, proving you still havent understood what is happening here (its an invoice, not a fine, only a judge or court of law can fine you)

this appears to be a private road, the signs say its private land and so its not subject to any council enforcement and no warden was present, nor were any fines issued, its all about a private parking company enforcing private parking rules on private land for a landowner or managing agentand subject to the IPC CoP

Ok, so I now who the landowner is (local Council). So I should complain to them first. Is there a Template letter in the NEWBIE section that I should use to do this? I can't see find anything.

Also, I notice many posts saying "DO NOT IGNORE YOUR TICKET" - but i've been advised above to wait for the NTK. So should I appeal straight away PPC as well as complaining to the Landowner?