EE.T-Mob.Orange. Change T&C From 26th March 2014

Keverso

Hi all,

I finally received this reply

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Thank you for your email regarding the recent text message you received.

Please be advised the text message sent to you was not sent to notify you of a price increase but to advise you of a change in our network terms and conditions which will be made from 26 March 2014.
As a company we wish to provide clarity on the terms to ensure customers are provided with more certainty and transparency in the event of us making any changes to your price plan. The update in the terms and conditions supports the guidance Ofcom recently issued around fairness in contracts around several issues, including price increase in contract. The change in the terms provides greater clarity on price increase notification, which includes the instances when you as a customer have the right to cancel a contract without charge.
In addition to the above we have signed up to the government's Telecoms Consumer Action Plan which aims to improve the customer experience in a number of areas, including bill transparency and certainty over the lifetime of a contract, in line with the principles of Ofcom's guidance.
I trust the above explains more clearly to you why the text message was sent to you.



Yours sincerely

Executive Office,EE

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What you people recommend as a suitable reply - I do not recall seeing this response mentioned earlier. You would think EE had one standard reply to send out to these complaints.

Thanks
Kevin.

shafeeq

Hi


I submitted my case to CISAS online on 5 March. Today I got a reply back that they are send my claim to orange... so here it goes.....


Gone a step further.


Shafeeq

SimonD316

Ed13P wrote: »

Unfortunately I agree with baldyj

Clause 4.3 of the Orange terms says:
You may also terminate your Contract if we give you written notice to vary its terms, resulting in an increase in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract to your material detriment. In such cases you would need to give us at least 14 days written notice prior to your Billing Date (and within one month of us giving you written notice about the changes). However this option does not apply if:

That last bit means that clause 4.3.1 is saying when you cannot cancel. I think that means Orange can raise the price by the highest published measure of inflation, whether RPI or something else. This is the opposite of the EE terms which says when you can leave.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what clause 4.3.1 actually means. This is actually really good because we can use this against EE. The UTCCRs Regulation 7 states that:

(1) A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language.
(2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail but this rule shall not apply in proceedings brought under Regulation 12.

Because there is doubt over the meaning of clause 4.3.1 it has to be interpreted in our favour - the maximum increase is the lowest published measure of inflation.

glasgowm148

Can anyone point me to the template for this email from EE (I'm tmobile?) I've checked #73 and #98 and it's neither of them

Thank you for your response with regard to the recent notification in the change of Terms and Conditions of your agreement.

Your comments are acknowledged. As a company, EE does not accept there has been any material detriment due to the recent proposed change in its terms and conditions. Under these circumstances any request from its customers to be released from contract without penalty will be declined and due to this, your request to cancel your agreement without penalty is declined.

Any customer wishing to cancel their contract may do so by providing the relevant 30 days notice period required but they will be held liable for any early termination fee.

The company, EE, have fully complied with the General Conditions set out under Ofcom regulations.

Yours sincerely



Dawne Hauxwell
Executive Office, EE
NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER
This e-mail (including any attachments) is intended for the above-named person(s). If you are not the intended recipient, notify the sender immediately, delete this email from your system and do not disclose or use for any purpose.

We may monitor all incoming and outgoing emails in line with current legislation. We have taken steps to ensure that this email and attachments are free from any virus, but it remains your responsibility to ensure that viruses do not adversely affect you.

EE Limited
Registered in England and Wales
Company Registered Number: 02382161
Registered Office Address: Trident Place, Mosquito Way, Hatfield, Hertfordshire, AL10 9BW

baldyj

SimonD316 wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what clause 4.3.1 actually means. This is actually really good because we can use this against EE. The UTCCRs Regulation 7 states that:

(1) A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language.
(2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail but this rule shall not apply in proceedings brought under Regulation 12.

Because there is doubt over the meaning of clause 4.3.1 it has to be interpreted in our favour - the maximum increase is the lowest published measure of inflation.

Don't get me wrong I would love everybody to win their cases again ee/tmobile/orange, but I disagree.

The only confusion I see is people confusing oranges 4.3 with ee/tmobiles 7.2.3.3. If you completely forget 7.2.3.3 and take 4.3 in isolation there is only one possible meaning, and unfortunately it is not one that favours the customer.

There are other arguments to be made though as have been pointed out by RC, I just don't think this specific argument is winnable.

sshariff

baldyj wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I would love everybody to win their cases again ee/tmobile/orange, but I disagree.

The only confusion I see is people confusing oranges 4.3 with ee/tmobiles 7.2.3.3. If you completely forget 7.2.3.3 and take 4.3 in isolation there is only one possible meaning, and unfortunately it is not one that favours the customer.

There are other arguments to be made though as have been pointed out by RC, I just don't think this specific argument is winnable.

Actually I still believe that the clause is ambiguous. One can club clauses 4.3 and 4.3.1 as..

4.3 You may terminate your contract.....
4.3.1 However this option does not apply if we increase the charges by an amount less than or equal to RPI

OR

4.3 You may terminate your contract.....
4.3.1 However this option does not apply if we increase the charges by an amount less than or equal to ANY other government statistical measure

This does mean that we can cancel if either of the above two conditions are satisfied. Again as others have mentioned it is the interpretation most favourable to the customer that applies for any ambiguous statement.

Moreover the UTCCRs don't give EE the right to have such varied price rise clauses which is the reason why they have changed them in order to move them from being unenforceable to enforceable.

baldyj

sshariff wrote: »

Actually I still believe that the clause is ambiguous. One can club clauses 4.3 and 4.3.1 as..

4.3 You may terminate your contract.....
4.3.1 However this option does not apply if we increase the charges by an amount less than or equal to RPI

OR

4.3 You may terminate your contract.....
4.3.1 However this option does not apply if we increase the charges by an amount less than or equal to ANY other government statistical measure

This does mean that we can cancel if either of the above two conditions are satisfied.

No it means you can't cancel if either of the two are satisfied! That's the whole point of the wording "However this option does not apply if:" (which is actually part of 4.3 not 4.3.1 as you have typed it).

Making the assumption that the current 2.9% RPI is the highest government statistical measure, lets go through some hypotheticals:

1)Orange increase prices by 1.5%; 1.5% is less than or equal to 2.9%, so the option to terminate does not apply.

2)Orange increase prices by 2.9%; 2.9% is less than or equal to 2.9%, so the option to terminate does not apply.

3)Orange increase prices by 5%; 5% is not less than or equal to 2.9%, so the option to terminate does apply.

Say hypothetically a new government statistical measure is created and it's currently running at 31%.

1)Orange increase prices by 20%; 20% is less than or equal to 31%, so the option to terminate does not apply.

2)Orange increase prices by 31%; 31% is less than or equal to 31%, so the option to terminate does not apply.

3)Orange increase prices by 50%; 50% is not less than or equal to 31%, so the option to terminate does apply.

sshariff

baldyj wrote: »

No it means you can't cancel if either of the two are satisfied! That's the whole point of the wording "However this option does not apply if:" (which is actually part of 4.3 not 4.3.1 as you have typed it).

Making the assumption that the current 2.9% RPI is the highest government statistical measure, lets go through some hypotheticals:

1)Orange increase prices by 1.5%; 1.5% is less than or equal to 2.9%, so the option to terminate does not apply.

2)Orange increase prices by 2.9%; 2.9% is less than or equal to 2.9%, so the option to terminate does not apply.

3)Orange increase prices by 5%; 5% is not less than or equal to 2.9%, so the option to terminate does apply.

Say hypothetically a new government statistical measure is created and it's currently running at 31%.

1)Orange increase prices by 20%; 20% is less than or equal to 31%, so the option to terminate does not apply.

2)Orange increase prices by 31%; 31% is less than or equal to 31%, so the option to terminate does not apply.

3)Orange increase prices by 50%; 50% is not less than or equal to 31%, so the option to terminate does apply.

I am afraid I still disagree that the terms are crystal clear! The very fact that there is an OR clause means that it is an "either" option. Let's see how the contract will look like without the OR clause;

4.3 You may also terminate your Contract if we give you written notice to vary its terms, resulting in an increase in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract to your material detriment. In such cases you would need to give us at least 14 days written notice prior to your Billing Date (and within one month of us giving you written notice about the changes). However this option does not apply if:

4.3.1 we give you written notice to increase the Charges (as a percentage) by an amount equal to or less than any statistical measure of inflation published by any government body authorised to publish measures of inflation from time to time, and published on a date as close as reasonably possible before the date on which we send you written notice;

Note that I have only included the second part of the OR clause (excluding the RPI bit). In this example again EE can use ANY statistical measure of inflation. So why was there a need to include RPI OR any other statistical measure in the clause? The fact is that the terms and conditions are not transparent enough!

Again, let's assume that you are still correct and EE are allowed to use whatever of the two (RPI/CPI) they wish. The UTCCRs state:

12.4 A degree of flexibility in pricing may be achieved fairly in the following ways.30
• Where the level and timing of any price increases are specified (within narrow limits if not precisely).

The very fact that the clause is open to any value that EE can choose makes it unenforceable and contravening the UTCCRs.

I would say let EE claim that they can use ANY value they choose. Once we get this in writing then it will be a very simple case in the small claims court! I really doubt they will like to go this way.

The way I see this being progressed by EE is a common one for all contracts where they will be searching for legal loopholes while at the same time not admitting to anything that will put them in an awkward position legally.

I suspect that they will be striking some deal with Ofcom & CISAS and try and shut down our cases. By this they will hope that 3/4th of the people complaining will now sit back and only 1/4 will end up in court. Thus they will minimize their losses.

[Deleted User]

hammersfaniow wrote: »

Just received this from EE:


"Case Reference: XXXXXXX
Account Number:

Dear Mr XXXX,

Thank you for response with regard to the recent notification in the change of the Terms and Conditions of your agreement.

Please be advised the Universal Service Directive 2003/22/EC you refer to is implemented in the UK through the Telecommunications Act 2003 and via Ofcom's General Conditions. Under General Condition GC9.6 a customer has the right to cancel its contract without paying a cancellation charge but only where the change is likely to be to the customer's material detriment. The notice we have issued to our customers is not a notice whereby the change is of material detriment, as such there is no entitlement for customers to cancel their contract without charge.

This is the company's final position and it refers the right not to enter into any further discussion with regard to this matter."


Does this mean I can now contact CICAS, seeing as they haven't given me a deadlock number, but they have said that is their final take on the matter ? If so, could someone help with how to fill in their online form, or do we do it via email, is it option 1,2 or 3 on their list ?


Thank you in advance

Hi,
I also just received this exact email of "This is the company's final position and it refers the right not to enter into any further discussion with regard to this matter." from EE.

So can we now go straight to the CISAS?
Do we need to send another email to the company at #245 of "what material Detriment is to me" before going to CISAS?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

rachx21

So I received response from cisas today they wont be taking my case any further as I haven't provided a deadlock reference but EE haven't responded to 3 Emails I sent and i also sent a letter through recorded delivery to them so I have proof that they have received it but nothing! Where do I go from here?