EE.T-Mob.Orange. Change T&C From 26th March 2014

sshariff

RandomCurve wrote: »

So I followed up as per the below the main thing to contrast is that in the above they were clear that if the price rise allowed has not increased then it is NOT of Material detriment, but have used a much "softer" statement if it does allow for a higher price rise by saying "it might" -Double standards!!! But this is as clear as you are likely to get from Ofcom and I think it demonstrates that for all post October 2012 contract holders you SHOULD (no guarantees) win your case!! The pre October 2012 can still win too, but the arguments are different.

EE, Ofcom and CISAS are all in on it. The CEO's probably met over a golf session and discussed this change in terms and conditions before notifying us. They all probably laughed together at the way they will manipulate the customers into having NEW conditions that will now be enforceable and at the same time make the "Stupid" customer believe that the change is of benefit to them!

The way I see Ofcom's responses is that they AGREE that the current terms and conditions are not enforceable and therefore are making way for the CPs to have them enforced on us.

ed_209_2

RandomCurve wrote: »

We note that EE has informed existing customers (who entered into contracts before 23 January 2014) of a modification to the price variation clause in the relevant contracts. It does not appear to us, based on the information we have, to be a change that gives rise to the right to cancel the contract under GC9.6 for the following reasons:

1. The revised terms put consumers in a better, or at least no worse, position than the previous terms. They do not purport to create a right to increase prices more than was previously the case, and provide more clarity to subscribers as to the published RPI figure that will be used.

I would usually be more measured in one's response, but that is just an out and out lie!

If there was a price increase based on January's figures, the old terms allow an increase of 1.9% without triggering the cancellation clause. The new terms and conditions allow for an increase of 2.8% without triggering the cancellation cause.

And that's without looking to see if there's an even more obsure government inflation statistic I'm unaware of!

Case closed. Surely?

ryan92

4 days have passed since I sent the second email so I resent it from my personal email account that allows read receipts. I received a read receipt from them almost immediately.

Is this some sort of automatic procedure they have?

sshariff

ed_209 wrote: »

Case closed. Surely?

I believe everyone has a winnable case in the small claims court. For pre-Oct 2012 Orange contracts with the old clause of a closed down statistical body it is even more true. To be honest I won't be surprised if CISAS come back with the exact same Ofcom comments - they are all in it together!

For a small claims case I believe even the USD is sufficient. The USD has come into force (mandatory by EU law) in the UK since 2003 through the Telecommunications act 2003. This is the law and Ofcoms job is to implement it. If they have opened the USD upto their own interpretations then it is their problem!

The very fact that the terms change moves the CP from an unenforceable clause to an enforceable one should be enough for our small claims.

ryan92

Got a response almost 45 minutes later!

I am sorry you remain unhappy with my response.

As a company EE does not accept there has been any material detriment due to the recent proposed change in its terms and conditions. Under these circumstances any request from its customers to be released from contract without penalty will be declined. Any customer wishing to cancel their contract may do so by providing the relevant 30 days notice period required but they will be held liable for any early termination fee.

The company, EE, have fully complied with the General Conditions set out under Ofcom regulations and as the previous emails and this one sets out fully the final position EE has taken, no further discussion will be entered into with regard to this matter.

Lifes_Grand_Plan

ed_209 wrote: »

I would usually be more measured in one's response, but that is just an out and out lie!

If there was a price increase based on January's figures, the old terms allow an increase of 1.9% without triggering the cancellation clause. The new terms and conditions allow for an increase of 2.8% without triggering the cancellation cause.

And that's without looking to see if there's an even more obscure government inflation statistic I'm unaware of!

Case closed. Surely?

Afraid I agree with Ofcom on this one and posted as much a few pages back before Ofcom's response above.

ed_209, I am affraid (IMHO) you are incorrect - the old term allowed EE to increase prices up to or the same lavel as any nationally published measure of inflation whether that be RPI, CPI or whatever.... they could choose which measure to use.

The new term only allows them to use RPI.

So in your example above they could use up to 2.8% increase levels in the first case and up to 2.8% increase levels in the second case.... so no change to the consumer.

Don't get me wrong, I want us to have a case here but I don't think the one we are arguing now is the right one.

Am I right in thinking that they have removed the "material detriment" bit in the new T&C's or is it still in there?

tateman

I've just received this after the 2nd email....

Case Reference:
Account Number:

Dear Mr Tate,

Thank you for your email regarding the recent text message you received.

Please be advised the text message sent to you was not sent to notify you of a price increase but to advise you of a change in our network terms and conditions which will be made from 26 March 2014.
As a company we wish to provide clarity on the terms to ensure customers are provided with more certainty and transparency in the event of us making any changes to your price plan. The update in the terms and conditions supports the guidance Ofcom recently issued around fairness in contracts around several issues, including price increase in contract. The change in the terms provides greater clarity on price increase notification, which includes the instances when you as a customer have the right to cancel a contract without charge.
In addition to the above we have signed up to the government's Telecoms Consumer Action Plan which aims to improve the customer experience in a number of areas, including bill transparency and certainty over the lifetime of a contract, in line with the principles of Ofcom's guidance.
I trust the above explains more clearly to you why the text message was sent to you.

Yours sincerely
Executive Office,EE

I'm not sure what to do now, request a deadlock reference? It's really annoying me that each email they send has the spin "we're doing it for your benefit". :mad:

ed_209_2

Old
7.2.3.3. The change that We gave You Written Notice of in point 7.1.4 is: (i) an increase in Your Price Plan Charge (as a percentage) higher than any increase in the retail price index (also calculated as a percentage) or any other statistical measure of inflation published by any government body authorised to publish measures of inflation from time to time, and published on a date as close as reasonably possible before the date on which We send You Written Notice; and
(ii) You give Us notice to immediately cancel this Agreement before the change takes effect.

New
7.2.3.3. We have given You Written Notice of an increase in a Price Plan Charge under point 7.1.4 and (i) the increase in Your Price Plan Charge (as a percentage) is higher than the annual percentage increase in the Retail Price Index (RPI) published by the Office for National Statistics (calculated using the most recently published RPI figure before we give you Written Notice under 7.1.4);

The term I've highlighted in bold is unambiguous. I can see that this may not be how the term was designed but that is not how its written.

if we substitute the numbers into the clause it may become more apparent...

(i) an increase in Your Price Plan Charge (as a percentage) higher than 2.8% (i.e. RPI) (also calculated as a percentage) or 1.9% (i.e. CPI).

And its great that you're giving us a going over LGP - far sooner you do than CISAS/Ofcom!

baldyj

ed_209 wrote: »

Old
7.2.3.3. The change that We gave You Written Notice of in point 7.1.4 is: (i) an increase in Your Price Plan Charge (as a percentage) higher than any increase in the retail price index (also calculated as a percentage) or any other statistical measure of inflation published by any government body authorised to publish measures of inflation from time to time, and published on a date as close as reasonably possible before the date on which We send You Written Notice; and
(ii) You give Us notice to immediately cancel this Agreement before the change takes effect.

New
7.2.3.3. We have given You Written Notice of an increase in a Price Plan Charge under point 7.1.4 and (i) the increase in Your Price Plan Charge (as a percentage) is higher than the annual percentage increase in the Retail Price Index (RPI) published by the Office for National Statistics (calculated using the most recently published RPI figure before we give you Written Notice under 7.1.4);

The term I've highlighted in bold is unambiguous. I can see that this may not be how the term was designed but that is not how its written.

if we substitute the numbers into the clause it may become more apparent...

(i) an increase in Your Price Plan Charge (as a percentage) higher than 2.8% (i.e. RPI) (also calculated as a percentage) or 1.9% (i.e. CPI).

And its great that you're giving us a going over LGP - far sooner you do than CISAS/Ofcom!

I think LGP is on Orange, and I believe that their clause is worded differently to those on T-Mobile/EE - see post #448

nsabournemouth

Just had this:

Thank you for response with regard to the recent notification in the change of the Terms and Conditions of your agreement.

Please be advised the Universal Service Directive 2003/22/EC you refer to is implemented in the UK through the Telecommunications Act 2003 and via Ofcom's General Conditions. Under General Condition GC9.6 a customer has the right to cancel its contract without paying a cancellation charge but only where the change is likely to be to the customer's material detriment. The notice we have issued to our customers is not a notice whereby the change is of material detriment, as such there is no entitlement for customers to cancel their contract without charge.

This is the company's final position and it refers the right not to enter into any further discussion with regard to this matter.