EE.T-Mob.Orange. Change T&C From 26th March 2014

hammersfaniow

Just received this from EE:


"Case Reference: XXXXXXX
Account Number:

Dear Mr XXXX,

Thank you for response with regard to the recent notification in the change of the Terms and Conditions of your agreement.

Please be advised the Universal Service Directive 2003/22/EC you refer to is implemented in the UK through the Telecommunications Act 2003 and via Ofcom's General Conditions. Under General Condition GC9.6 a customer has the right to cancel its contract without paying a cancellation charge but only where the change is likely to be to the customer's material detriment. The notice we have issued to our customers is not a notice whereby the change is of material detriment, as such there is no entitlement for customers to cancel their contract without charge.

This is the company's final position and it refers the right not to enter into any further discussion with regard to this matter."


Does this mean I can now contact CICAS, seeing as they haven't given me a deadlock number, but they have said that is their final take on the matter ? If so, could someone help with how to fill in their online form, or do we do it via email, is it option 1,2 or 3 on their list ?


Thank you in advance

baldyj

ed_209 wrote: »

4.3.1 we give you written notice to increase the Charges (as a percentage) by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices or any other statistical measure of inflation published by any government body
authorised to publish measures of inflation from time to time, and published on a date
as close as reasonably possible before the date on which we send you written notice;

I'm not sure it matters - as has been posted before the key is the use of the word OR.

Its the higher of RPI or CPI... RPI is 2.8%, CPI is 1.9% = 1.9%
Its the higher of RPI and CPI... RPI is 2.8%, CPI is 1.9% = 2.8%

4.3.1 looks very similar to the EE term in this regard.

Yes but 4.3.1 is an example of when you can't cancel penalty free not when you can!

So I read it that you can't cancel penalty free when the increase is:

1) Equal to or less than 2.8% (RPI)

Or

2) Equal to or less than 1.9% (CPI).

If either 1 or 2 are satisfied then penalty free cancellation cannot happen. So they can raise by RPI without meaning you can cancel your contract penalty free.

Ed13P

baldyj wrote: »

Yes but 4.3.1 is an example of when you can't cancel penalty free not when you can!

So I read it that you can't cancel penalty free when the increase is:

1) Equal to or less than 2.8% (RPI)

Or

2) Equal to or less than 1.9% (CPI).

If either 1 or 2 are satisfied then penalty free cancellation cannot happen. So they can raise by RPI without meaning you can cancel your contract penalty free.

This is different to clause 7.2.3.2 in the EE terms which say you can cancel penalty free where the increase in your price plan is higher than any increase in the retail price index etc.


The first part of the clause says:
7.2.3 A cancellation charge wont apply if You are within the Minimum Term and;

I assume this is different in your terms and conditions? What does the first part say?

glasgowm148

Just had a response again, Template time!

Case Reference: xxxx
Account Number: xxx

Please respond to executive.office@ee.co.uk

Dear Mr Glasgow,

Thank you for your response with regard to the recent notification in the change of Terms and Conditions of your agreement.

Your comments are acknowledged. As a company, EE does not accept there has been any material detriment due to the recent proposed change in its terms and conditions. Under these circumstances any request from its customers to be released from contract without penalty will be declined and due to this, your request to cancel your agreement without penalty is declined.

Any customer wishing to cancel their contract may do so by providing the relevant 30 days notice period required but they will be held liable for any early termination fee.

The company, EE, have fully complied with the General Conditions set out under Ofcom regulations.

Yours sincerely



Dawne Hauxwell
Executive Office, EE
NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER
This e-mail (including any attachments) is intended for the above-named person(s). If you are not the intended recipient, notify the sender immediately, delete this email from your system and do not disclose or use for any purpose.

We may monitor all incoming and outgoing emails in line with current legislation. We have taken steps to ensure that this email and attachments are free from any virus, but it remains your responsibility to ensure that viruses do not adversely affect you.

EE Limited
Registered in England and Wales
Company Registered Number: 02382161
Registered Office Address: Trident Place, Mosquito Way, Hatfield, Hertfordshire, AL10 9BW

edit: Can't find a reply to this email in the thread, is this a new one?

sshariff

baldyj wrote: »

Yes but 4.3.1 is an example of when you can't cancel penalty free not when you can!

So I read it that you can't cancel penalty free when the increase is:

1) Equal to or less than 2.8% (RPI)

Or

2) Equal to or less than 1.9% (CPI).

If either 1 or 2 are satisfied then penalty free cancellation cannot happen. So they can raise by RPI without meaning you can cancel your contract penalty free.

Their terms are ambiguous and are therefore currently unenforceable. The "All Items Index of Retail Prices" WAS a measure used by the Central Statistical Office which closed in 1996. This government office then merged with another body into what is currently known as the Office for National Statistics which then started publishing the RPI (Note the terminology has slightly changed). This is why Orange included the "OR any other government body" clause in subsequent contracts (Post Oct 2012)!

So technically RPI is no longer a government accepted measure of inflation, which is one of the arguments in RandomCurves case to CISAS. Hence by changing the clause to RPI you are definitely in a detriment!

Even if you consider it to be the RPI then too the clause can be interpreted by the customer to imply that you can cancel either way due to the lack of transparency.

See posts 457 and 458 by RandomCurve.

baldyj

Ed13P wrote: »

This is different to clause 7.2.3.2 in the EE terms which say you can cancel penalty free where the increase in your price plan is higher than any increase in the retail price index etc.


The first part of the clause says:
7.2.3 A cancellation charge wont apply if You are within the Minimum Term and;

I assume this is different in your terms and conditions? What does the first part say?

I am on T-Mobile post October 2012 so I have 7.2.3.2. However for those on Orange with clause 4.3.1 I don't think it can be argued that in the current terms Orange are only able to increase prices by the lowest rate of inflation, as per my previous post.

RandomCurve

BananaPilot wrote: »

Just had an email from CISAS. EE were supposed to respond by 17/03/2014:



"We acknowledge receipt of a request from the company for an extension of time in which to submit their defence. Under CISAS rules, one extension, up to 5 working days is allowed and we therefore expect the defence [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]on or before 24/03/2014[/FONT][/FONT].

If the defence is still not received by this deadline then we will proceed with the appointment of an adjudicator and refer to the adjudicator the documents received to date.

The adjudicator may then proceed to determine the dispute ex-parte on the basis of the statement of claim documents. Alternatively if the adjudicator sees fit, he / she may direct that the company may have a further extension of time within which to submit the defence to claim."

Does this mean EE are worried?

This is good and bad.


Good because it shows that EE are very worried.
Bad because it probably suggests that rather than relying on their own inept legal team they are drafting in some outside expert help to try and find a loophole!


EE are probably also in negotiation with Ofcom to see what assistance Ofcom (the organisation designed to protect the consumer!) can offer in finding some obscure rule which gets them off the hook. I have done all I can to obtain Ofcom's views (in writing) before EE contacted them so hopefully that would have helped reduce Ofcom's room to manoeuvre.


The battle is truly starting!!!


I think I said in one of my earliest posts that even if you lose this case it will have opened your eyes to what is really going on, I think you can all clearly see how EE operate and just knowing the beast you are dealing with is useful.


I also find it funny that the CISAS process (supported by Ofcom) allows the Mobile phone companies who have dedicated professional legal resources extra time to prepare a response to a claim from us well intentioned amateurs, but when EE finally provide a defence there is no process to allow us additional time respond and so we just have to fit this in around our day jobs. Nice to know the system is fair and not stacked in either parties favour!

RandomCurve

Lifes_Grand_Plan wrote: »

Afraid I agree with Ofcom on this one and posted as much a few pages back before Ofcom's response above.

ed_209, I am affraid (IMHO) you are incorrect - the old term allowed EE to increase prices up to or the same lavel as any nationally published measure of inflation whether that be RPI, CPI or whatever.... they could choose which measure to use.

The new term only allows them to use RPI.

So in your example above they could use up to 2.8% increase levels in the first case and up to 2.8% increase levels in the second case.... so no change to the consumer.

Don't get me wrong, I want us to have a case here but I don't think the one we are arguing now is the right one.

Am I right in thinking that they have removed the "material detriment" bit in the new T&C's or is it still in there?

I still believe that the clause has to be interpreted as to when you CAN cancel , not when you can't, therefore if you run the logic of when you can cancel through the clause first then clearly you can cancel if the rate used is higher than RPI, having made that connection you then go on to read the OR part it also follows that if the rate s higher than any other rate you can cancel.


I guess it is a matter of deciding if the two parts of the clause are connected or exclusive. In either case as I have said before the fact the debate is being have means it is ambiguous (even if it has a meaning understandable by lawyers), it is not written in clear intelligible language, and if it gives EE the right to chose which rate to use it is also unfair under the UTCCRs, either way the new clause is to your material detriment.

Ed13P

Unfortunately I agree with baldyj

Clause 4.3 of the Orange terms says:
You may also terminate your Contract if we give you written notice to vary its terms, resulting in an increase in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract to your material detriment. In such cases you would need to give us at least 14 days written notice prior to your Billing Date (and within one month of us giving you written notice about the changes). However this option does not apply if:

That last bit means that clause 4.3.1 is saying when you cannot cancel. I think that means Orange can raise the price by the highest published measure of inflation, whether RPI or something else. This is the opposite of the EE terms which says when you can leave.

Lifes_Grand_Plan

Ed13P wrote: »

Unfortunately I agree with baldyj

Clause 4.3 of the Orange terms says:
You may also terminate your Contract if we give you written notice to vary its terms, resulting in an increase in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract to your material detriment. In such cases you would need to give us at least 14 days written notice prior to your Billing Date (and within one month of us giving you written notice about the changes). However this option does not apply if:

That last bit means that clause 4.3.1 is saying when you cannot cancel. I think that means Orange can raise the price by the highest published measure of inflation, whether RPI or something else. This is the opposite of the EE terms which says when you can leave.

I agree, looks like the game might be up for Orange people.

However I have a cunning plan - don't want to give details away on here in case EE are reading but I think I have a way around this. Will test it out and update if it works.