EE.T-Mob.Orange. Change T&C From 26th March 2014

EnglishWelshie

I sent one with a FAO Angie Jones as mentioned in a previous post it was marked as read within 5 minutes

50Twuncle

EnglishWelshie wrote: »

I sent one with a FAO Angie Jones as mentioned in a previous post it was marked as read within 5 minutes

Any reply though ?

RandomCurve

rufio1408 wrote: »

This was the email I received after the phone conversation. He promised he would have some information for me to review before our conversation on Sunday as he is off work until then.

Hi Mr xxxxxxxxxx,

Hoping all is well.

Following our conversation earlier today, I am sending this email as a sign of commitment in pursuing a resolution to your query.

I have consulted with our Executive Offices, by way of a coleague, to fully check all possible options that we have for you.

I currently do not have a response just as yet but I am possitive that within the next 24 hours that we should receive one.

Our conversation this coming Sunday is set at 5 in the afternoon and I will be able to discuss the details by then as our email can only be accessed whilst in the premises of our office.

We are hoping that we maintain our business with you and that the outcome be fruitful to both parties.

Wishing you a great weekend and will speak to you soon!

Respectfully Yours,

xxxxxxxxxx

Ops Manager

Orange UK PayM Transact

Surely they would not be doing this unless they thought i was right?

My initial argument was that nowhere in the T&C does it say i must accept new changes or alterations UNLESS it is enforced by legislation.

Secondary argument is the material detriment. He advised me that my price plan WOULD be affected by any price rises and wishes to strike a deal so that and increases in the future do not put me in a material detriment.

I look forward to your Sunday afternoon post!


I hope they're not just going to offer you £5 pm discount so when prices go up your still paying less - that would be an insult.

GolfBravo

RandomCurve wrote: »

As a pre October 2012 contract the case is not so "cut and dry" (as much as these things can be when you need an adjudicator to decide), but I still think you can win a case. I will be putting up a CISAS template on the forum for those on pre October 2012 contracts in due course.

How would a pre October 2012 CISAS claim differ? I have one.

sshariff

GolfBravo wrote: »

How would a pre October 2012 CISAS claim differ? I have one.

Actually EE had sneakily amended its pre Oct 2012 terms without informing the customers and brought it in line with the other contracts. Their own website confirms the pre Oct 2012 conditions as below:

http://help.ee.co.uk/system/selfservice.controller?CONFIGURATION=1016&PARTITION_ID=1&secureFlag=false&TIMEZONE_OFFSET=&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&USERTYPE=1&ARTICLE_ID=1423731#

All old terms and conditions in FULL can be found at http://help.ee.co.uk/system/selfservice.controller?CMD=CUST_CMD_MIXED_SEARCH_NEW&COMPUTE_ALL_HITS=true&RESULTS=CONTENT_TYPE&ARTICLE_START=1&ARTICLE_COUNT=10&TOPIC_START=1&TOPIC_COUNT=5&GUIDED_HELP_START=1&GUIDED_HELP_COUNT=5&FORUM_START=1&FORUM_COUNT=5&searchString=orange+terms+and+conditions&CUSTOM_BRAND=Orange&OVERRIDE_CUSTOM_PARAMETERS=true&SEARCH_SELECTED_TOPIC_ID=-1&CONFIGURATION=1016&PARTITION_ID=1&TIMEZONE_OFFSET=&segment=consumer&isSecure=false

On a few cisas cases last year they told cisas that they have not emended the terms and conditions, however they are on their own website to prove your case.

The question to ask is - Why hasn't EE retracted from the incorrect terms and conditions on their website if they aren't the correct ones? And that too since last year!

I too am on a pre Oct 2012 Orange contract and have used RandomCurves template. In appendix 1 I have stated to cisas that the Orange terms and conditions for pre Oct 2012 contracts are specified on their website at the link that I specified!

Now if EE tell cisas that my terms and conditions are actually something else then we do have a case as to why they have mentioned otherwise on their own website. In any case this will prove beneficial to us in a small claims court where they are amending the contract from being non-enforceable (as it refers to a government body that no longer exists) to an enforceable one!

If you file a complaint with CISAS based on the old 4.3.1 clause then EE will try and get your CISAS case dropped by pointing CISAS to the terms and conditions on their website. Now if you raise a complaint with the terms and conditions on their website then again they may bring up the old clause. They are quite well known at deceiving people like this.

In any case we need in writing from them via the CISAS case about what the actual terms and conditions are and then take them to a small claims court. The fact remains that they will find it very difficult to win a case based on an unenforceable clause in the contract. Moreover it will cost them a lot more to try and defend the claim (with a high chance of losing face in court) than it would to pay out.

50Twuncle

I have decided not to stay with EE - after my 2 year contract expires in 2 months time

I need an "unlocking code" for my Samsung note (GT N7000) -

I tried all of the usual on-line sources - but none could guarantee me a working code - so I reluctantly filled in EE's £20 + vat form - to wait up to 2 months for the code

I received confirmation of my order by text "Thanks for submitting your request to unlock your iphone. Please allow 20 days to receive your email detailing the code and instructions to unlock your iphone."

The BLITHERING IDIOTS think that I have an iphone - which will no doubt fail to unlock - leaving me with an unusable phone

50Twuncle

http://eecomplaints.co.uk/make-a-complaint
an interesting website with email addresses and photos of all of the miscreants !!
together with the procedure to make a complaint (sorry - don't mean to step on the heels of anyone here)

RandomCurve

GolfBravo wrote: »

How would a pre October 2012 CISAS claim differ? I have one.

The pre October 2012 (Orange and T-Mobile) never referred to any other rate other than RP (or its processor), so you can't use the fact the contract has moved from the lower CPI to the Higher RPI rate, but you can use the other arguments put forward (Material detriment being ambiguous, and unenforceable clause to enforceable per Ofcom guidance).


You could also construct an argument that the original intention of RPI not being of Material detriment was that it was the UKs National measure of inflation, however since March 2013 RPI is no longer a National Statistic and has been replaced by CPI as THE official measure of UK inflation. You where contractually bound by RPI, but when EE updated the T&Cs they should have also replaced RPI with CPI as any right to increase the price over and above CPI would be creating a rise that was of Material detriment as it is above the official UK inflation rate. As you have the right to cancel the contract if it is to your material Detriment - then that is what you are doing.


The above are all in addition to the argument that the old Orange contract referred to a defunct RPI and publishing body and so is likely to be unenforceable.

rufio1408

So I had the phone call as promised.

A little background :

My current plan = £41 (I pay £36 due to a phones4u discount) and this gets me 900mins Unlimited Text and 1GB data
On average I use about 400-500 minutes a month and max out my data

---

The offer i got was apparently all this operator can do at the minute as he is awaiting further guidance from the executive office. This was to 'optomise my price plan'

I was offered £32.99pm for 600 minutes, unlimited text and 1GB data.

I explained how I was extremely disappointed with this as it had the potential to actually put me in MORE of a material detriment. The operator kept saying how i never use anywhere near my allowed minutes. My response was 'but that doesn't mean I wont, and if i go OVER the new lower minutes allowance I will end up paying even more than i currently do!'

His response was that he understood the point I was making and would keep the lines of communication open so he can inform me when the executive office get back to him.

He told me his usual working schedule for the next week and his extension number. Obviously we already have communication going through email as well.

Personally I couldn't believe the cheek of that offer. He started off saying it would be a saving of £5 per month. His maths skills are not exactly up to scratch. Fortunately I am able to add up figures...

"Out-of-bundle calls will be subject to a minimum call charge of 5p and will be charged at 12p per minute for calls to standard UK landlines (those beginning with 01/02/03), Orange mobiles and answerphone. Out-of-bundle calls to other UK mobile networks will be charged at 35p per minute. "

So lets say I accept the new offer then use up to my original 900 minutes with a half half ratio of mobile and landline.

12p x 150 = £18
35p x 150 = £52.50

So how is this offer good for me exactly??? I could end up paying £103.49 for using what is currently in my price plan! A £3.01pm saving is just nowhere near enough to run a risk like that.

I am now waiting further response from him, but i'm pretty sure it will be a CISAS claim

Also found this the other day which i haven't had the time to read fully but might be of use to us

*Not allowed to post links, but on the citizen advice bureau website it has an article about phone/broadband changes to terms and conditions*


While typing this i have received an email from him

Hi Mr xxxxxxxx

Thanks for your time on the call.

My schedule for the week is from x to xxPM from Monday to Thursday and will be available at this time.

My phone extention is xxxxxx.

I am hoping to get a response from our Executive Offices by afternoon of Monday and will relay this message to you as soon as I have it.

Respectfully Yours,

xxxxxxxx

Ops Manager

Orange UK PayM Transact

Now I have finished this post, its time to write an email back to him showing the maths

Hope this is of some help

rufio1408

This is the email response I sent

"Hi xxxxx


Thanks for keeping my updated. I just wanted to make you aware of some calculations I have just done to do with the offer that was made to me during our phone conversation.

"Out-of-bundle calls will be subject to a minimum call charge of 5p and will be charged at 12p per minute for calls to standard UK landlines (those beginning with 01/02/03), Orange mobiles and answerphone. Out-of-bundle calls to other UK mobile networks will be charged at 35p per minute. "

So lets say I accept the new offer you discussed with me of £32.99pm for 600minutes.

If one month I use up to my original 900 minutes it would cost me a lot more than your proposed savings. Let's say for example, i use the 300minutes evenly between landlines and mobile numbers.

12p x 150minutes = £18
35p x 150minutes = £52.50



I would end up paying an additional £70.50 on my regular monthly charge! I am sure you can agree that if the above situation were to occur, this would be of a huge material detriment to myself. Even if I only payed the minimum of 5p per call it would still cost me an additional £15pm


I understand you were saying that changing to this tariff was to 'Optomize my price plan"

However I signed up for the price plan I am on because that is the one that I wanted. I wanted 900minutes a month in case I ever need to use that many.


I find you offer of changing my current price plan £41pm (I actually pay £36 due to a discount from Phones4U) to the proposed £32.99 price plan to be completely unacceptable and I do not find this an acceptable solution to the breach in terms and conditions I believe Orange has made.


Please keep me informed of any further developments.


I eagerly await your response


Thanks

xxxxx