EE.T-Mob.Orange. Change T&C From 26th March 2014

louisg

I too haven't had a response.

50Twuncle

louisg wrote: »

I too haven't had a response.

Nor have I (I emailed them over a week ago)


It appears that they are claiming that they have not broken their own rules (yet) - merely allowing them to change them in the future ...


How unsportsmanlike can a company get ?

bbb_uk

What was the t&c beforehand?

Did they not previously say they could increase it anyhow?

If they didn't then that itself maybe a case for not accepting the new t&c as they introduced a new t&c which you never signed upto which gives them the right to increase prices which they previously didn't have the right to do. You would likely need to take this to the ombudsman as EE are likely to try and say no and then complain to ofcom as well.

If, however, the previous t&c you signed to did mention about price increase then there has been no detriment as such; just clarification of what they can do.

All Ofcom have done with new guidelines have clarified that these companies can increase prices but to max of RPI so long as it's pointed out when taking contract out.

As for what classes as being pointed out I have no idea but I can't see these companies saying to new customers just before signing contract, "oh by the way we can an increase our prices when we want upto RPI whatever that is at the time and there is nothing you can do because Ofcom have clarified that we can do this." I think all that will happen is that new contracts will have t&c in them to say they can increase it by rate of RPI.

rectangle

Wallace231 wrote: »

......
This is the companies final position and it refers the right not to enter into any further discussion with regard to this matter.

Yours sincerely

Executive Office,EE

Who are they referring the right to?

In other news, I sent my first email on the 11th and havent had a reply yet.

Dudeface

I have had this after a first response that just basically saidf what the original text said.


Dear Mr xxxxx,

Thank you for your email response. I think there has been some confusion as to the context of the information provided to you.

EE has recently signed up to the government's Telecoms Consumer Action Plan which aims to improve the customer experience in a number of areas, including bill transparency and certainty over the lifetime of a contract. We have signed up to working with the government and Ofcom on ways to improve transparency in contracts in line with the principles of Ofcom's guidance. More information about Ofcom can be found at [

The update to our Terms and Conditions supports this aim and provides customers with greater clarity about price increase notification, including the instances when you have a right to cancel your contract without charge. Your current Terms and Conditions do not allow a customer to end their agreement without penalty if we make such a change, therefore the proposed change is a benefit to you in this instance.

I regret the change does not allow you to end your agreement without penalty. Should you wish to leave T-Mobile, the Buy Out Fee of your agreement would be applicable.

The Executive Office is empowered to deal with any queries directly addressed to Olaf Swantee, Chief Executive Officer and the Board of Directors. The Executive Office is the highest point of escalation within EE. Should you wish to seek external advice regarding this query, it is entirely at your own discretion.

Whilst I understand this is not the outcome you were looking for, I trust I have clarified EE's position regarding this matter.



Yours sincerely

Victoria Hunt
Executive Office, EE


Any way of replying to this or is it pretty final?

sshariff

bbb_uk wrote: »

All Ofcom have done with new guidelines have clarified that these companies can increase prices but to max of RPI so long as it's pointed out when taking contract out.

As for what classes as being pointed out I have no idea but I can't see these companies saying to new customers just before signing contract, "oh by the way we can an increase our prices when we want upto RPI whatever that is at the time and there is nothing you can do because Ofcom have clarified that we can do this." I think all that will happen is that new contracts will have t&c in them to say they can increase it by rate of RPI.

The problem is that the current EE contracts were never specific about increasing the prices by the RPI. For example my Orange contract (Pre Oct 2012) has the following clause

"4.3.1 we have increased the Charges by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices published by the Central Statistical Office in the Monthly Digest of Statistics in any 12 month period; "

The new Ofcom rules state that the clauses need to be transparent enough in order for the provider to raise prices. In the above case there is no RPI mentioned and the Central Statistical Office had closed down in 1996 so the terms are not transparent. Without the new clause EE could not have implemented a price increase as per the new Ofcom rules and therefore they are amending the rules in order to raise the prices from May!

There is nothing about EE seeking to clarify things but they want us to accept the new terms and conditions after which nobody will have any ammunition against their next price rises.

The only time the communications provider can amend the terms and conditions without the customer having the right to leave is when there are legislation related changes; however this is not the case this time.

Also as per the UTCCRs when a term is ambiguous it is the interpretation most beneficial to the customer that is to be taken. This goes for a "Material detriment" in their terms and conditions so technically for a change in terms and conditions that is able to cause any future "material detriment" to the customer then it is the interpretation from a customer point of view that should count.

CISAS is the next option but before that we should first be asking them for a deadlock. Even if EE come back and state that they won't provide a deadlock then this is enough to raise a case with CISAS.

I would suggest that everyone also copy in BBC watchdog when raising their complaints with cisas. I am quite confident that in a small claims court the USD will be sufficient but for cisas they do seem more "provider inclined" than an "independent adjudicator" so therefore it might be better copying in BBC watchdog as well along with our complaint.

Let's also wait for RandomCurve for his inputs.

bbb_uk

sshariff, apart from the fact that your t&c mentions a now defunct government department I still don't think there is much difference except the ONS is now responsible I believe for RPI figures.

I agree though maybe everyone should complain to BBC Watchdog because at the end of all this Ofcom are the ones that clarified what mobile companies were pretty-much doing anyhow beforehand and Ofcom haven't stated what they consider transparent.

Do they mean transparent as in it has to be mentioned in t&c, or that they expect these companies to verbally mention to customers before a contract is signed?

I scanned through Ofcom's new rules and Ofcom apparently wanted us customers to have a better idea of any increases (ie be better informed about likely price increases) but to be honest nothing has changed. No one, at the time of entering into a contract, knows what the RPI figure is going to be; nor when these companies will increase their prices by the RPI. Therefore customers are still very much uncertain and Ofcom have not helped.

BBC Watchdog can be contaced here.

RandomCurve

burnzrox wrote: »

Hello,

Thank you for your email addressed to the EE Executive Office.

We appreciate the time you have taken to write to us, however in order to resolve any issues you have, you would be required to contact our Customer Service team. Our Customer Service team is equipped to deal with all issues relating to EE products and services by calling 150 or 07973 100150. We are unable to provide an email address for this department or able to forward your email on, sorry for any inconvenience caused. Should you be unhappy with the response you have with Customer Service you have the right to make a request for your complaint to be escalated to a Team Manager and then if still unresolved to the relevant Operations Manager. In the unlikely event that your issue remains unresolved the Operations Manager will contact the Executive Office for further advice or alternatively they will escalate the issue on your behalf. For details of our complaints procedure please see the EE Code of Practice for Consumer Affairs, a copy of which can be found online using the following link.

Whilst we appreciate the above is not the response you had hoped for, the Executive Office is responsible for a variety of work practices and as such is not necessarily the quickest route to resolve an issue. Please be assured that resolving any complaint or issue as quickly as possible is our primary concern.

Kind Regards

Well now the EE club have stooped to a new low.

As much as I don’t like this company I have to admire their ability to side step issues and make things as confusing and difficult for their customers as possible. It seems they have learnt a few lessons from when they messed up last year’s price rise. Last year when they realised they had got things wrong they announced that they “were not answering questions on the price rise until the legal staff had had a chance to review the situation”. That statement came back to haunt them, so this time they are trying to “buy time” to think about this by directing you through the customer services line. The good thing is that I also learnt a few lessons from last year including the fact that the Customer service team do not have the authority to offer you a penalty free cancellation (in deed from many of the posts I have seen on this forum they do not even know that the T&Cs were changed). See my post from April 2013 for my conversation with customer services –post #158 https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4536143

I suggest you either call Customer Services on 150 as advised, but rather than going into the detail just keep asking them:
“Do you have the authority to offer a penalty free cancellation” when you finally get a “no” answer move onto the
“Can you transfer me to someone who can?” also ask
if they can provide a WORD for WORD transcript of the conversation FREE of CHARGE.
Follow the script on the post from April 2013 post #158 https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4536143

OR

Go straight to the email I will post. I suggest it would be more powerful to make the call to 150 first.

RandomCurve

Email to send if you decide NOT to call 150


Don't forge to add the date at the end of the email


Dear Mr Swantee,

Thank you for your email, detailing the complaints procedure that you have in place.

As you know I am seeking a Penalty Free cancellation due to the change in T&Cs that you have informed me of and further claim that by not offering me a penalty free cancellation you have breached our contract. As this is a legal dispute I am surprised at the process you have outlined as I would not have thought that your customer service call centre would be equipped or trained to deal with this type of issue. Neither is it likely to provide the written evidence we both may need to rely on should we be unable to resolve this dispute between ourselves.

Before I embark on the process you have described you need to understand that as we are in dispute, it is important that a written record is kept of our communications in regard to this matter, hence why I felt the email route would be the most appropriate communication method from both of our perspectives as there can be no debate in future over exactly what was communicated. To ensure that your process provides the same level of evidence and duty of care in discharging this contract can you confirm that after each call in the process you have outlined I will receive (free of charge) a word for word transcript of the conversation, or failing that, that you will accept –without question - as factually correct any record I make of the conversation? If not then the procedure you have outlined is clearly not fit for purpose as it provides no protection to either of us in the event that this is escalated to CISAS or the Small Claims Court and falls way short of the duty care you owe me in discharging our contract, and we should immediately revert back to communication via email.

On the assumption that you will provide a word for word transcript immediately following each call, or accept without challenge my notes from the call as being an accurate record, then can you also confirm the timescales by which the process you have outlined would take before a penalty free cancellation is issued, or a CISAS deadlock reference is received? I.e :

• How long should I need to wait on the phone before it is answered when calling 150?
• How long between my first call and a call back from the Team Manager
• How long between ending my discussion with the team manager and a call back to me from the Operations Manager
• How long before the Operations Manager comes back to me with an answer from the executive office

And can you confirm the answer form the Executive office will either be a Penalty free PAC code, or a CISAS reference


Additionally in order to ensure that you are complying with your duty of care can you confirm that:

• Customer service staff on number 150 have the authority to issue me with a PAC code without penalty, or a CISAS deadlock reference.
• The Team Manger has the authority to issue me with a PAC code without penalty, or a CISAS deadlock reference
• The Operations Manger has the authority to issue me with a PAC code without penalty, or a CISAS deadlock reference
  Should any one of the three step contact be unable to offer the remedy sought can you explain how presenting me with a process that can not result in the resolution sought can be shown as you applying a duty of care in relation to this dispute? And respond via email to the points raised in my email to you of DATE
  
  Regards

RandomCurve

Email to send if you call 150

Don't forget to change the DATE


Dear Mr Swantee

Thank you for your email, detailing the complaints procedure that you have in place.

I have tried to follow the process outlined, but rather than wasting time explaining the detail to the Customer Services person I asked them if they had the authority to offer me a penalty free cancellation – and they have not. They also said that they could not transfer me to ANYBODY who had such authority. I further asked if a word for word transcript of the conversation could be provided free of charge and they said it could not.

Given the above I do not see how we can ever reach the resolution I seek (and the resolution you KNOW I am seeking) in a way that fully records what was communicated, or at all, with the process you have in place.

Can you please explain how the process you have put in place in anyway complies with your duty of care in discharging this contract in that nobody has the authority to resolve the issue to my satisfaction and no full record of the communication is kept?

Given the above we should continue to progress this matter via email and I would be pleased if you would respond in full to my email of DATE and also address the point above.

Regards