Sons' Dad Being Difficult

cakeforbrains

Hi there. Just after some impartial opinions on my situation please.

Background: My ex and I split up about six years ago. We have two sons aged 9 and 11. He sees them for two nights every other weekend, plus some of the school holidays. He's never asked for more than about three weeks spread across the year. He gets four weeks holiday from work per year.

Over the last few months the CSA have been recalculating and discovered that he owes about £5k in arrears and must also increase his standard payments. He's really p'ed off about this, as you would imagine.

Now, recently, he asked if the boys could stay with him (and new wife and child) for an extra week in the summer holidays (so two instead of one) and for the whole October half term. I said fine to the summer holiday week but that we should split the half term 50/50. He was really annoyed about this but (or so I thought) accepted it.

Then, when he brought the boys home after the weekend it all kicked off. He stood the boys in the doorway and got them both to tell me that they wanted to spend the whole October half term with him. He said that they had decided this independently and, therefore, I should let them do what they want. I sent the boys out of the room so that we could talk and he proceeded to tell me that the boys would resent me in the long run for not allowing them to see him. He started raising his voice and telling me that I was being unfair. Our nine year old came back into the room and he asked him to say where he wanted to spend the half term. I managed to get our son out of the room before he felt like he had to answer.

After their dad had gone both the boys were crying. I spent two hours calmly talking to them. The nine year old kept saying 'daddy isn't forcing us to say' but then described himself as feeling like he was 'at a crossroads without a map'. I reassured him that he didn't need to feel like he needed to make any decisions and that he could spend half the holiday with his Dad and half at home.

The eleven year old said that he doesn't think that his dad should have to pay any maintenance to me at all. He thinks it's unfair. I tried to reassure both children that every other weekend, plus sharing the holidays was actually a very normal situation.

This morning I had another chat with the nine year old. He said that Daddy often says lots of rude 'jokes' about me and my husband. He calls me fat, lazy, ginger (!), and says that I 'have no soul'. My son was reluctant to say everything that was said because he was worried it would make me cry. He said that when these things are said it makes him uncomfortable but he feels like he has to laugh along.

I really feel like this 'technique' is winning over our eldest son, who seems to have become very closed off to me and says that his dad is the only one who understands him.

We've (myself and my husband) have always been very careful not to badmouth the boys' dad in front of them because we don't want them to feel stressed or like they have to take sides. Their Dad obviously doesn't worry about this and seems to be succeeding in creating some kind of partisan situation in which they're essentially on his side. I just don't know what to do or how to react. I feel like all the care and love I have given to them over the years after surviving an emotionally abusive relationship with their Dad counts for nothing because their Dad takes them on fun bike rides and pokes fun at Mummy.

What shall I do?

Treevo

Can you arrange for your children to see a therapist? They'll need some coping mechanisms to deal with this kind of abuse.

peachyprice

What shall I do?

There are several issues here, they all need tackling independently from each other.

cakeforbrains wrote: »

Over the last few months the CSA have been recalculating and discovered that he owes about £5k in arrears and must also increase his standard payments. He's really p'ed off about this, as you would imagine.

This is for the CSA to deal with and it's no concern of yours if he's pee'd off with them, he should have been honest with them in the first place, the whole point of using CSA for maintenance is that they deal with it.

Now, recently, he asked if the boys could stay with him (and new wife and child) for an extra week in the summer holidays (so two instead of one) and for the whole October half term. I said fine to the summer holiday week but that we should split the half term 50/50. He was really annoyed about this but (or so I thought) accepted it.

Why did you say no to October half term? You already had them for the majority of the summer holidays, what was the hardship in letting them go for a week in October? I feel you were just being awkward for the sake of it, they don't have much time with their father, anything extra is good, surely?

Then, when he brought the boys home after the weekend it all kicked off. He stood the boys in the doorway and got them both to tell me that they wanted to spend the whole October half term with him.

This is a difficult one, did he do that because they asked him to because they knew you wouldn't listen to them? Or did he do that to force you into changing their mind by upsetting them? Only you were there, only you know how your children reacted.

He said that they had decided this independently and, therefore, I should let them do what they want. I sent the boys out of the room so that we could talk and he proceeded to tell me that the boys would resent me in the long run for not allowing them to see him.

If this is true, then yes, he is right, they are old enough to make decisions like that.

After their dad had gone both the boys were crying. I spent two hours calmly talking to them. The nine year old kept saying 'daddy isn't forcing us to say' but then described himself as feeling like he was 'at a crossroads without a map'. I reassured him that he didn't need to feel like he needed to make any decisions and that he could spend half the holiday with his Dad and half at home.

So you haven't actually listened to what they want, no wonder your son feels at a crossroads, you are no better than their father when it comes to manipulating them. If they do want to spend October with their father and step sibling you've now made it patently clear that you do not want them to and have filled them with guilt for wanting to do so.

The eleven year old said that he doesn't think that his dad should have to pay any maintenance to me at all. He thinks it's unfair.

How does he know anything about the maintenance, neither you or his father should be discussing this with them, it's not something they should be worrying about.

I tried to reassure both children that every other weekend, plus sharing the holidays was actually a very normal situation.

Did you also tell them that nothing is set in stone and it's usual for children to change which parent they want to spend time with as they get older? Did you also tell them that it's usual for their to be mid-week contact if distance allows and that it's usually to share the holidays 50/50?

This morning I had another chat with the nine year old. He said that Daddy often says lots of rude 'jokes' about me and my husband. He calls me fat, lazy, ginger (!), and says that I 'have no soul'. My son was reluctant to say everything that was said because he was worried it would make me cry. He said that when these things are said it makes him uncomfortable but he feels like he has to laugh along.

This is totally unacceptable and I would be pulling your ex up over this, it's cruel and very disrespectful of him, it doesn't matter what he thinks of you, this should never, ever be voiced in front of the children and they certainly should never be encouraged to join in.

I really feel like this 'technique' is winning over our eldest son, who seems to have become very closed off to me and says that his dad is the only one who understands him.

Or maybe he just wants to spend time with his dad but is afraid to tell you so?

I just don't know what to do or how to react. I feel like all the care and love I have given to them over the years after surviving an emotionally abusive relationship with their Dad counts for nothing because their Dad takes them on fun bike rides and pokes fun at Mummy.

It doesn't count for nothing, you will always be their mummy and they will always love you, but you need to start loosening your apron strings. You need to let them find out for themselves that really, daddy isn't that great, they aren't going to find that out for themselves by you making them feel they are being disloyal to you for wanting that and by restricting access when they are old enough to choose themselves where they want to spend time.

Gigervamp

If they stay with him for the whole of the half term, and the extra week in the summer hols, that increases the amount of nights he has them. As he's asked for this after the CSA have told him he needs to pay more, I'm wondering if he can get a reduction in the amount due to the number of nights they spend at his.

That was my first thought.

Not sure what you can do regarding what he's telling the boys though. It's a tough one.

Fosterdog

Gigervamp wrote: »

If they stay with him for the whole of the half term, and the extra week in the summer hols, that increases the amount of nights he has them. As he's asked for this after the CSA have told him he needs to pay more, I'm wondering if he can get a reduction in the amount due to the number of nights they spend at his.

That was my first thought.

Not sure what you can do regarding what he's telling the boys though. It's a tough one.

But does it matter if he gets a reduction if he has the boys for longer? He will have to spend the money on their care while they are with him so he's not really saving anything but is gaining more time with his sons. He already has them for more than 52 nights a year if he has them for 2 nights each fortnight and some of the holidays, would an extra 14 nights reduce it further or would he need a lot more overnights to reduce anything?

Gigervamp

I think it would be a good thing for the boys to spend more time with their dad, but I do wonder about his motive.

And he's bang out of order to be talking to them about their mum the way he is.

FBaby

I don't think my ex has every bad-mouthed me in front of the kids (or he has, they haven't told me), however, he is excellent at convincing the kids of his 'poor daddy' situation and getting the sympathy card from them. He doesn't pay a penny in maintenance, but what I used to get from my eldest (about the same age as yours at the time), was that it wasn't daddy's fault that he got sacked, that his boss wasn't paying him, that he could just afford to pay the rent, that he got a new car, but that's because he had too because he has hurt his foot and can't walk etc.... I used to say nothing because I didn't want them to be put in the middle but it used to get me so cross that he relieved himself of all his responsibility, but manipulated the kids so that they felt sorry for him and believed that it was normal that I should pick everything up since I didn't have all his problems. It's been two years, they are getting older, and they are starting to see things a bit more clearly. They are still very protective of him, but are also starting to see what it means that I am left to pay for everything with ever demanding requests. Still I do still at times feel that the sun is shinning out of his a** when my kids are concerned whilst I'm just the cash cow. I know deep inside it is not how things are, and deep inside, my kids know all I do for them and love me dearly, but some comments they make without thinking can be quite hurtful. Most people tell me that one day they will realise what it was like, but I am not raising them for them to thank me one day, just to become good people.

Saying that, I am not sure you dealt with the October issue as best as you could. When he suggested having them all week, did you ask him why and whether he was planning on doing something special that week? Did you ask your kids what they wanted to do? Maybe he wasn't lying that the boys had told him they wanted to spend the whole week with him for whatever reasons.

Kids in these situations will usually tell their parents what they want to hear. They will want what one is proposing but not dare tell the other one for risk of upsetting them. Maybe someone you trust could talk to them in neutral grounds?

The name calling is really outrageous and pathetic. You can't stop it, but maybe the neutral person could explain to your boys that this is not very mature behaviour and they shouldn't hesitate to tell their dad that they it makes them feel upset and sad when he says things about their mum.

pukkamum

I think peachyprice has it bang on, the 11yr old will be identifying more with his dad at this age, my son has done the same. It doesn't mean he doesn't love or need you, my son just wants to be round dad at the moment, which I don't think is any bad thing.

I also feel you are being slightly unreasonable not to allow the extra half term holiday, perhaps they are really enjoying getting to know their new sibling and want more time with them. Dad's probably wants his son's to feel they are part of his new family despite the new baby.

Of course calling you names in front of them is wholly unacceptable and you need to address this asap.

Please don't make your boys feel bad for wanting to spend more time with dad, you will lose out in the end as in their eyes you were stopping them seeing their dad and they will resent you for it at some point.

Grit your teeth, put on a happy smile, and tell your boys you are happy for them to spend the holidays with him.

Errata

Before you do anything, why not talk it all through with your current husband? He lives with your children and is heavily involved in their upbringing and wellbeing and may see things from a slightly different perspective to you, which could be helpful.

sassyblue

Fosterdog wrote: »

But does it matter if he gets a reduction if he has the boys for longer? He will have to spend the money on their care while they are with him so he's not really saving anything but is gaining more time with his sons. He already has them for more than 52 nights a year if he has them for 2 nights each fortnight and some of the holidays, would an extra 14 nights reduce it further or would he need a lot more overnights to reduce anything?

But if that's what he's doing it for and it doesn't work he might decide not to have the kids over so much - thus hurting them.

cakeforbrains

I am happy for the boys to spend half the holidays with their dad as well as every second weekend. As far as I can see it this is sharing the 'quality time' equally.

He has never ever asked to have them for more of the holidays before now. When he did, he asked for these two weeks and I have 'allowed' 75% of that. I don't see what is fair about him having them for the entire of the October half term. My husband works and has to take time off to spend time with the family as well, and we also have another son so they have a step-sibling here too.

I did ask him whether he had booked a holiday away and he hasn't. I've never prevented him from taking them on holiday. If I let the boys dictate when they want to see him now then what am I supposed to do when the nine year old says he doesn't want to see Daddy at all (as he has recently)? I really don't think that they are mature enough (especially the nine year old) to make an objective decision about who to spend time with when. Their decisions will be mostly based on who is asking them the question and how effective their dad's propaganda is. Apparently 'ginger people have no soul' is a running joke within their household when the boys are around (my husband, myself and our two year old are all ginger and the older boys aren't).

A year or so ago the question was mooted about the older son having some extra time with his dad (the nine year old wasn't interested and nor was his dad in him - when they were younger he proposed splitting them up so that the youngest lived with me because the older one is more like him). I said that that could be a good idea and suggested that perhaps Dad would like to take him out sometimes at the 'mummy' weekend for long bikes rides or other things they like doing, just let us know. Nothing happened. He's never tried to arrange anything. He's never asked to take either of them to dinner or out to play. He came to a parents' evening once. He tells them that homework is boring and they should only do it at Mummys. At yet, when I say 'no, hang on, let's share the October week 50/50' suddenly I am being completely unfair and unreasonable and it's proof that I don't care about anyone's feelings.