Jack saying goodbye to his bits

meritaten

Pechow wrote: »

Curious, do you feel the same way about psychologists and such?

What makes them the experts are the years of studying ethology, biology, husbandry, etc.

lol - I have a degree in human psychology and what the course taught me was that humans are never completely understood! we can predict SOME behaviours but not all. and as for animal behaviour - we can predict some breed behaviours - but within those breeds individual animals can and do, behave out of character! The OWNER of a dog or cat knows their pet - yes an animal behaviourist can give valuable input, just as a human counsellor can help troubled souls - and give a fresh input on whats going on. but, behavioural psychology whether human or animal never treats the underlying cause as it concentrates on the symptoms.

aliasojo

meritaten wrote: »

lol - I have a degree in human psychology and what the course taught me was that humans are never completely understood! we can predict SOME behaviours but not all. and as for animal behaviour - we can predict some breed behaviours - but within those breeds individual animals can and do, behave out of character! The OWNER of a dog or cat knows their pet - yes an animal behaviourist can give valuable input, just as a human counsellor can help troubled souls - and give a fresh input on whats going on. but, behavioural psychology whether human or animal never treats the underlying cause as it concentrates on the symptoms.

I don't have a degree in human psychology and I may be misunderstanding you but I strongly disagree with your last comment.

I've had lots of interaction over the years with psychologists (with eldest), in fact one became a good friend before he moved on and we lost touch.

Anyway, I was always told that you need to establish root cause in order to accurately treat the resulting behaviours. That seems to go directly against what you have just said.

zaksmum

So if a behaviourist sees my dog, first off he will ask everything about him. Then after a load of psychobabble he might conclude that I get stressed when seeing a huge off lead Akita or American Bulldog racing towards us snarling with no owner in sight.

That Jack senses this and so he in turn tenses up and refuses to allow this attacking dog to get on his back and rip his throat out.

That it all doubtless stems from the attack on him a while back which may have made Jack fear-aggressive so that he fights back strongly.

And he might conclude that I should muzzle Jack so that the next time he is attacked he will be helpless and get himself killed or at the very least badly injured.

No thanks, I'll pass on the behaviourist.

Person_one

I don't understand your attitude at all.

You can't solve the problem, however hard you've tried and however well you know your dog you haven't managed it, he's still a danger.

You don't agree with neutering, yet you're willing to put him through what you believe is an unnecessary operation rather than at least try working with a professional? What harm can it do? Wouldn't it be lovely to be proved wrong?

How on earth are you so sure that it would be useless?

Paradigm

zaksmum wrote: »

That it all doubtless stems from the attack on him a while back which may have made Jack fear-aggressive so that he fights back strongly.

I'd be tempted to agree with this. The problem you have is that there is lots of evidence that castration can make fear aggression worse.

You say he gets frightened very easily, if so you are taking a massive gamble by having him "done" you could be opening up a whole new can of worms & the 99% of dogs he tolerates now become threats.

I'd be seriously giving this 2nd thoughts & looking at other options, although as you've ruled out behaviourists those options are limited.
Is there any way you can walk him in a different place & a different time to try to avoid the problem dogs?

I hope it works but if it doesn't there's no going back...you can't have them re-fitted

aliasojo

Paradigm wrote: »

I'd be tempted to agree with this. The problem you have is that there is lots of evidence that castration can make fear aggression worse.

You say he gets frightened very easily, if so you are taking a massive gamble by having him "done" you could be opening up a whole new can of worms & the 99% of dogs he tolerates now become threats.

Indeed. Cutting off the supply of testosterone in a dog that has experienced fear aggression is the worst thing you can do. And again, a high percentage of vets will not be very knowledgeable about behaviour side effects.

However I've just remembered I said I was going to shut up, lol. :rotfl:

Paradigm

aliasojo wrote: »

And again, a high percentage of vets will not be very knowledgeable about behaviour side effects.

Some of the younger vets are more up to date & many are aware of the possible side effects, mine is great (she's quite nice too )

aliasojo wrote: »

However I've just remembered I said I was going to shut up, lol. :rotfl:

Shhhhh. I won't tell anyone.

aliasojo

Paradigm wrote: »

Some of the younger vets are more up to date & many are aware of the possible side effects, mine is great (she's quite nice too )

Ah funny you should say that, mine is maybe in his very early 40's and wasn't particularly aware of the hormonal side effects of neutering. To his credit though, he's a very open minded type who says he's constantly learning and it was a younger behaviourist he looked to for advice about related issues.

There's so much more information now compared to a few years back and neutering is no longer the catch all recommended procedure for everything, given the mounting evidence of the negative side of it.

Even now the majority of vets and owners will neuter at 6 months yet there is overwhelming evidence that this is just too early and will interfere with emotional development.

It's a shame it's still often touted as a 'fix'.

zaksmum

I've never had a dog neutered in all my years of dog ownership - except Lucy who came to me already spayed, and she has been my only female dog, my others were all males.

And had no intention of having Jack neutered either.

But I have weighed up all the options and after much heart searching I genuinely do feel that this is the best way forward now...far from ideal but the most logical next step.

krlyr

aliasojo wrote: »

It's not quite as simple as that though, the hormones play a part and to cut off the supply of testosterone can make things worse.

I too would recommend getting a behaviourist in before neutering him. Once it's done, you cannot undo it therefore you'll be stuck with any negative consequences.

Aggressive behaviour can often stem from fear, and removing testosterone can make an anxious or fearful dog worse. A good behaviourist should interpret the dog's behaviour, body language etc. and be able to get a good idea of the cause of his behaviour - something you may not be able to see either as someone too close to the situation (physically - not being able to see the whole picture - and emotionally) or without the years of knowledge/experience of a variety of aggressive and fearful dogs.

I would at the very least trial the chemical castration. Whilst they can have some side effects themselves, at least they're not as permanent as neutering. I know someone trialling Suprelorin as an alternative to castration in her GSD, who has issues with other dogs (mainly other males) and has found it has helped his behaviour a lot.