Jack saying goodbye to his bits

merlin1

I'm going to reply within your quote and also apologise in advance because it will be full of questions!

zaksmum wrote: »

Thanks merlin. He was advertised in a Gundog magazine as one of 11 pups, an intentional breeding I was told.

There's my first question... why?

The owner had a working farm and was also the local vet. The pups were advertised as having "soft mouths" which the owner told me meant they would retrieve without damaging they prey, just gently hold it in their mouths and take it back to their owner.

perfectly normal when advertising labs/springers etc, they need a dog to do just that. why he'd choose to mess with that by introducing a whippet is anyone's guess. Anyway that is history so no point dwelling on it. Did you meet both mum and dad?

I got him at 12 weeks but he'd been totally untrained at that point, just running wild around the farm with his siblings.

Again perfectly normal with working farm dogs, they learn from each other, from mum and dad, and from mr farmer if he chooses to take a pup from the litter and train it, in my experience. however, how is he running a farm and a veterinary practice? I worked for a vet with a working (cattle and sheep) farm, and he bred from his stock, took the best pups to work and shot the rest. He had no time to rear and train a litter of pups. only the ones that would make the grade will do and he refused to send any to rescue. sorry that is harsh, but farming is anyway again that is history, back to jack... and here comes the questions...

How did you train him at 12 weeks,? Are you still in a countryside setting?

When I tell him to leave, he obeys me but sometimes has done a bit of damage in those few seconds.

Bit of damage? when you tell him to leave your ideal response should be his nose against your thigh looking at you for his next instruction. (your absolute split second timing when he makes eye contact is a treat.) clicker training is invaluable for this. you need to be his only focus.

When another dog goes for him, it has raced up to him snarling then tried to get on his back - all in a split second.

Ok, so he is not actually the bad guy starting it? is this one particular dog he has a problem with? has he ever happily met any other dog that hasnt tried to mount him? is the other dog always off lead? has he ever met any other dogs while both he and them are off lead? or both on lead?

The minute it tries to get on his back he goes crazy and would kill it if I didn't yell at him to leave.

See above and to add, are the dogs trying to mount him always male? do you have him on a short lead and tense when you see another approach?

But then the other dog will come back and have another go at getting on his back and there's literally fur flying.

How do you mean come back? If jack has gone crazy and meant it, the other dog will not come back and try again, might skirt round and test the water, but if jack meant it that dog would not try and mount again especially with you on the other end of the lead. are you sure you are reading the other dog and jacks signals correctly?

Another trigger is if another dog attacks my elderly female dog Lucy who's 11. Again he goes crazy and hurls himself between the dog and Lucy. Also he's very protective of me.

Again when you say attack your elderly dog, go through all those question I asked earlier. He will naturaly be protective of both you and Lucy, but in no way is every dog out to attack all three of you surely? What are these dogs you are meeting and where?

He really is a lovely dog and thank you for understanding this. It's nice not to get slagged off because I don't want to muzzle him.

I am absolutely not going to slag you off, muzzle or no muzzle, however I do think that you need to get that plan b in place. If it means calling in a behaviourist then do it, any decent trainer will train you and help you understand yours and you dogs and the approaching dogs body language, the latter is usually where you get your lightbulb moment

So there's my ramble, please dont feel you have to reply, I just hope that my questions give you time to think through the answers, and come to your conclusions. I'm no dog expert, but through lots of hard work and soul searching, you do 'get' their ways eventually.

good luck x:)

zaksmum

Thank you merlin. The owner said he wanted a mix of his two excellent dogs. Yes I did meet both mum and dad. The mum was a barker but not in a nasty way. The dad was sweet, calm and laid back but petrified of his puppies!

The farm was in a very remote area of mid Wales. The wife did much of the running of the farm with her two adult sons and the vet was at his practise the day I got jack so I didn't meet him, but Jack came with vaccination records signed by him on the area's vet practise care papers.

I started training him from scratch at 12 weeks. I've had dogs all my life and I'm in my 60s now so I wasn't a novice.

No, I'm not in a rural setting now, I'm in the inner city.

When I tell Jack to leave he does stop very quickly but there is another dog trying to get on his back biting him. If he completely stops he will be badly hurt or killed.

I want to emphasise here that Jack NEVER starts a fight. NEVER EVER.

He meets loads of dogs on our walks on and off lead and is fine with 99% of them. It's just the stupid macho male weapon dogs that are the problem. Being in the inner city the place is heaving with them. In the park there will be lads with staffies, American Bulldogs, Akitas...all off lead. The lads are swaggering yards behind the dogs and when they race over to Jack they shout to the dog "F*ckin' get here!" which of course the dog ignores. Then they grab it and boot it. And yes, I do tense when I see a massive slavering off lead American Bulldog racing towards us.

It's not a sexual mounting by the way, but a dominance thing. And they DO have a second go at him even after he has seen them off.

When a dog attacks Lucy this happens because a male has tried to mount her even though she's spayed and elderly. She growls at them and they attack her so Jack defends her by chasing them off, usually just with a bit of a snap which makes them back off. It's when he is attacked that he gets really intense.

Thank you so much merlin.

zaksmum

meritaten wrote: »

Labrador Whippet cross? a Labett? or a Whipador?

joking aside zaksmum - why are you so against neutering? or muzzles (from another thread). you are a reasonable person so I find this attitude strange from you?

Thanks meritaten. Yes I really am a reasonable person!

I'm doing what I believe is best for my dog - I am not against neutering. I'm having Jack neutered on Monday but I'm far from happy about it.

I am definitely not going to muzzle him. No way.

The owner of the parent dogs used the whippet (Jack's father) to cull the rabbits on his farm that were eating all his crops. So yes, he did want pups that were fast, chase prey, kill it and bring it back. They were so much in demand in his area, I was told, that of the 11 pups only three were left at the end of the 12 weeks, of which Jack was one.

BJV

We normally take our dog to the beech but there is a big park 2 mins where we live last week I had jogg / run as quick as I could with the kids and Charlie in tow from two dogs. The owner was trying everything , literally everything to get the dog off but the sound was terrible and the kids where frightened. So was I !

A black lab had decided for what ever reason to battle to the death with a small brown dog. Not sure what breed but the poor thing was just walking along with its owner and the lab went mad.

I completely understand the muzzle issue, but where would it stop? Would every dog have to be muzzled?

What would be the responsible thing to do?

Person_one

BJV wrote: »

We normally take our dog to the beech but there is a big park 2 mins where we live last week I had jogg / run as quick as I could with the kids and Charlie in tow from two dogs. The owner was trying everything , literally everything to get the dog off but the sound was terrible and the kids where frightened. So was I !

A black lab had decided for what ever reason to battle to the death with a small brown dog. Not sure what breed but the poor thing was just walking along with its owner and the lab went mad.

I completely understand the muzzle issue, but where would it stop? Would every dog have to be muzzled?

What would be the responsible thing to do?

The responsible thing to do regarding muzzling, is that if you know your dog would bite another dog if approached, you put a muzzle on it when you're out and about.

In an ideal world, a lead would be enough because everybody would follow the unwritten rule that a dog on a lead means 'don't approach'. However, not every dog owner knows this rule, some don't care (not the dog's fault) and sometimes accidents just happen as no dog is 100% reliable. So if you know your dog is a danger to other dogs, you should muzzle it.

Its better for everyone really. The dog doesn't get approached as much because the muzzle is a really effective 'keep away' signal so it gets less wound up and has less confrontation. Its better for other dogs because even if they do approach and the muzzled dog attacks, it can't do any damage so they can just run away unharmed rather than getting bitten or killed. Its better for the owner because they can relax on their walks a bit, which will mean they aren't passing tense stress signals down the lead to their dog.

Have a read of the thread by neveranymoney called 'advice needed asap'. Its a really good example of somebody managing pretty much perfectly when they realise they have a dog-aggressive dog. (You have to read the whole thing though!)

joansgirl

He meets loads of dogs on our walks on and off lead and is fine with 99% of
them. It's just the stupid macho male weapon dogs that are the problem. Being in
the inner city the place is heaving with them. In the park there will be lads
with staffies, American Bulldogs, Akitas...all off lead. The lads are swaggering
yards behind the dogs and when they race over to Jack they shout to the dog
"F*ckin' get here!" which of course the dog ignores. Then they grab it and boot
it. And yes, I do tense when I see a massive slavering off lead American Bulldog
racing towards us.

I think I'd take a bloody big stick with me and beat the owners!

Seriously though, there are a few round here like that and I must admit that I avoid them like the plague as they obviously aren't in control of their animals. But it's not always possible to walk the other way especially if there are a lot of them and being inner city I can see where you're coming from. And I can appreciate why you won't muzzle him. It's a quandary. I don't know the answer.

aliasojo

zaksmum wrote: »

I'm having Jack neutered on Monday but I'm far from happy about it.

Are you not going to consider speaking to a behaviourist then?

chatbug

Sorry Zaksmum only just seen this. I have a 20 month lab. Booked him in at the vets a couple of months ago for the opp but when I got there was asked why I wanted him done. Told them I was not going to breed with him. He is quiet a shy nervous boy and was told this could make him worse. Was told it would be best to see a behaviourist. The vet said if the behaviourist says after she has seen him it would be best to try the chemical castration first, to see if he was better or worse.

YORKSHIRELASS

Hi

We rescued a 2 year old JRT x last year. He had issues, one of which was being reactive to other dogs, although it wasnt aggression just a lack of socialisation. We had no choice about the neutering as this was a condition of taking him on.

I can honestly say that neutering him made no difference to his behaviour or temperament, good or bad. What did work was getting a trainer involved and doing socialisation classes.

Our behaviourist told us that neutering causes massive hormone changes in a dogs body and it takes 2-4 weeks for this to settle down. The dog can feel very unsure of itself during this period and if he has too many negative experiences with other dogs it can start a pattern of bad behaviour which can be hard to rectify. This is why some people believe that getting a dog neutered can make aggression worse.

We were advised to keep our dog as quiet as possible for 2 weeks, walk him at times of day when we were unlikely to see other people and avoid contact with other dogs. We followed this advice carefully because it seemed to make sense.

Good luck, as others have said I think you need a plan b too but hope it all works out.

zaksmum

Thanks joansgirl. I know for a fact if he was muzzled when one of these damn dogs attack him he would be killed. The vet said it may be because he is an entire male that they attack. Therefore they will hopefully not perceive him as a threat if he is neutered, not attack him and so he won't have the need to fight back.

Aliasojo, no, I won't be speaking to a behaviourist. I know my own dog best and I can't see what a behaviourist can do that I can't.

Chatbug, thanks. I have asked the vet about chemical castration and he was not keen on it due to side effects.

Yorkshire lass, I am hoping it won't make the aggression worse because if other dogs don't attack him (because he won't smell male to them any longer) he won't have to fight back.