Age and driving

securityguy

Old_Joe wrote: »

Reading many of the posts on this thread at 82 I suspect many of will think the same of me. I wonder what the ratio of accidents/deaths are caused by the older driver compared with many of the younger generations?

The paper of choice is probably this one:

http://www.jefftk.com/files/fragility.pdf

We need to be careful about reading over US results in the UK, because seatbelt wearing, especially amongst the elderly, is lower in the US. With that caveat, elderly drivers (over 80) are between ten and fifteen times more likely to die, per mile driven, than those aged 30--59, and about three times more likely to die, per mile driven, than the youngest drivers who are otherwise the highest risk (table 1 on page 230, last column). That's partly because the drivers themselves are less well able to withstand an accident: they're about three to five times more likely to die in any accident they are involved in (table 1, column 7).

In terms of being involved in an accident serious enough to involve the police, 80+ are never as dangerous as 16--19 year olds (this is the US, hence the 16 year olds) but are more dangerous than any other age group. 16--19 year olds are increasingly priced off the roads, and the advent of telematics insurance will modify their behaviour, but we don't have numbers yet.

So in summary, 80+ year olds are slightly less dangerous to those around them than teenagers, but more dangerous than any other age group. In terms of danger to themselves, they are massively (around ten times) more dangerous than teenagers are to themselves.

Fig 2 (page 231) summarises the involvement of drivers in accidents, per mile driven. You can see it drops rapidly from 16 to 30, is pretty much level to 70 and then rises rapidly. Fig 1 (page 231) shows the deaths per mile driven: it straightforwardly rises with age. Young people have more accidents, reducing as they get to 30, but walk away from them. Older people have fewer, but increasing once they get past 70, and die in the driver's seat.

You asked for numbers. There they are.

margaretclare

lostinrates wrote: »

Nevertheless, in this case, the stereotype is being conformed to I fear.

Margaret Clare, may I ask what you would do if you felt a contemporary of yours was in the position my parent was in...fairly socially isolated locally, but 'busy' if able to get out and about but proving no longer that 'Quick reacting' or sensible on the road.

Fwiw, around the dinner table no one holds a candle to them (or a word edge ways) . It's mainly a driving issue.

I think in your case there may be no alternative to reporting to the DVLA, when all else has failed. What, exactly, is the problem? Is it slowness of reactions? Is it a visual problem? I stress, only when all else has failed.

Securityguy notes: older drivers are less able to withstand an accident. In some fatal accidents locally it was noted that 'the driver had a heart attack' - was that before, or after the accident? Was that what caused the accident, in other words?

In the minor shunt in which DH was involved recently, if he had been hit any harder it could have put him back into hospital because of the very delicate spinal surgery he'd had a year before.

I really wondered about the man in the gym car-park last week. He was having a real struggle to park, going forward, back, forward, back, even if he didn't want to 'parallel park' there (many don't) there was ample room. I wondered what he's like on the roads if he's that indecisive in the car park!

margaretclare

Yorkie1 wrote: »

I agree with the other posters who say that if persuasion / negotiation doesn't work, a report can be made to the DVLA.

I have an acquaintance whose aged Dad's driving was abysmal but the Dad wouldn't accept it. If the family confiscated the car keys, he found the spare set and carried on driving.

So eventually, after much heartache like that shown on this thread, they felt that the risk both to him and to the wider public was too great, so they referred it to DVLA. They called him in for a medical and his licence was revoked.

The difficulty they found with the 70+ recertification process is that it relies on the driver being self-aware and/or honest about their abilities.

Yes, that was how the man who killed Natalie and seriously injured her mother was able to get away with it for so long. He had no vision in one eye and only limited vision in the other. He died before the wheels of justice were able to catch up with him.

lostinrates

margaretclare wrote: »

I think in your case there may be no alternative to reporting to the DVLA, when all else has failed. What, exactly, is the problem? Is it slowness of reactions? Is it a visual problem? I stress, only when all else has failed.

Securityguy notes: older drivers are less able to withstand an accident. In some fatal accidents locally it was noted that 'the driver had a heart attack' - was that before, or after the accident? Was that what caused the accident, in other words?

In the minor shunt in which DH was involved recently, if he had been hit any harder it could have put him back into hospital because of the very delicate spinal surgery he'd had a year before.

I really wondered about the man in the gym car-park last week. He was having a real struggle to park, going forward, back, forward, back, even if he didn't want to 'parallel park' there (many don't) there was ample room. I wondered what he's like on the roads if he's that indecisive in the car park!

I think its that same indecisiveness, plus a little bit of fear. In a person who is other parts of their life very confident, perhaps even a little bulldozer ish this is probably an alien feeling making it even more terrifying? That's a guess though. There is also, yes, a slowness of reaction. On their own feet this person, is fine, and is quick witted often. Loneliness and egoism sometimes has impact on conversational charm, but really, to all intents and purposes this is a highly intelligent person who in no way shape or form other than this makes me worried about independent living.

I've been thinking and thinking and thinking about this in circles now. My husband thinks I should speak to the GP after I raised that suggestion after this thread if for no other reason than the GP see the parent more regularly than I do. He also thinks I should tell the GP my feelings about the depression as we are not clear whether GP is in the loop for that.


I read something recently that older people are generally happier. It's not been what I have seen, but I really, really hope its the norm, and that I get the norm!

Pollycat

margaretclare wrote: »

I think in your case there may be no alternative to reporting to the DVLA, when all else has failed. What, exactly, is the problem? Is it slowness of reactions? Is it a visual problem? I stress, only when all else has failed.

I've just re-read the OP's posts and I think this is worrying:

lostinrates wrote: »

Not the sort of driving a bit slowly thing, that's frustrating more than dangerous, but had to be yelled at to stop at a few junctions and then tried to turn right onto a roundabout :eek: my parent said this is never normally a problem just in my local town and now that they are older they avoid roads they are not familiar with. . This seems fundamentally unsafe to me, not just for them but to other road users.

What if nobody had been there to yell 'STOP!!!'?

Even if you're driving somewhere that you're not used to, surely experienced drivers don't turn right onto roundabouts?

It sounds to me that your parent is losing concentration when driving.
And if that is the case, driving on roads he/she knows won't guarantee they won't have an accident that is their fault.

Sadly, I think I agree with margaretclare - if your parent won't listen to your concerns about his/her safety and other peoples safety and agree to stop driving, it's probably time to do something about it.

securityguy

margaretclare wrote: »

Yes, that was how the man who killed Natalie and seriously injured her mother was able to get away with it for so long. He had no vision in one eye and only limited vision in the other. He died before the wheels of justice were able to catch up with him.

The problem is that a lot of people (including some in this thread) focus on the actual person, with a name and a face, who has been prevented from driving, while it's much harder to contemplate the statistical abstraction that is the unknown person they may or may not kill.

In your case you've seen the consequences, but (in a variation on the "my father smoked 100 a day and lived to 90" fallacy) most dangerous drivers don't kill people, and equally some theoretically safe drivers have accidents that kill. Removing someone's driving license will definitely impact their life, leaving them driving badly might impact (literally, in this case) someone else's life. That's a balance, but a balance that sometimes errs too much towards the driver's "right" to drive.

As the population of the UK ages, this is going to be an increasing problem. We live lives that are often predicated on driving a car, and my generation (50ish) are the first where both partners in a marriage being able to drive and often owning two cars is a norm, rather than an exception. Public transport isn't widely used, and "my generation" and slightly older who are sat on the huge profits of houses bought in the 1970s and 1980s are often able to move to small towns and the countryside, which is fine when they are 70 and driving, not fine when they are 80 or 90 and perhaps shouldn't be driving. They're then reluctant to move back into cities, which they often can't afford anyway, while public transport in small towns and rural areas decays to zero. Probably they could use taxis for the cost of running a car, but again cities have much more competitive and effective taxi networks.

Compounding this, things which might have stopped elderly drivers in the past (heavy unassisted steering and brakes, awkward non-synchromesh gearboxes, cars that are iced up and reluctant to start on slippery winter mornings) now don't, and a modern small hatchback, particularly with an automatic gearbox, requires far less strength and skill to drive than even twenty years ago. (Autos are another issue, with people who haven't driven autos before only switching to them when it's forced on them, and not really be able to use them properly).

It's a huge problem, and one with a lot of possible solutions. Driving is inherently dangerous, and people hugely underestimate how dangerous it is. It's all a balance of risk versus utility. But we have to confront the issue now, because demographics --- more older people, because of the fall in birth rate from 1964 onwards, who in turn are living much longer but not necessarily in as good health --- are not on our side.

margaretclare

I read something recently that older people are generally happier. It's not been what I have seen, but I really, really hope its the norm, and that I get the norm!

We are happy. We have enough money - not rich but a long way from being poor - to live a comfortable life and do all the things we want to do. Getting together in later life, falling in love all over again, being in a happy marriage, being able to converse, to have shared interests, these are what make us happy and essentially, keep us young at heart.
But we shouldn't be as happy if there was only one of us - which, inevitably, will be the case one day. We do the things we do now because we know that the time will come when we shan't be able to. For example, our very recent trip to the Hebrides and Highlands of Scotland. DH drove all the way. We drive an automatic because of problems with his left leg, also he can't get into the passenger seat because that leg won't bend far enough to get round the A-frame. Driving an automatic means 'you forget you have a left leg' as the salesman told me to do. But that will be the last time we're ever able to undertake a trip of that length, 2,300 miles in total over a couple of weeks. We're doing all this while we still can. The costs of having a car will be balanced out by going by taxi - DH is in a lot of pain if he stands and walks for long, that's why bus pass is not an option either. And maybe, flying from our local airport - half a mile away - will then become the preferred option for holidays, rather than jumping in the car.

margaretclare

Oh my goodness. If I had to be 'yelled at to stop at junctions, tried to turn right on to a roundabout' - that really IS cause for serious concern.

What if he does this when driving alone? I drive alone - going to the gym etc - mainly because DH can't get into the passenger seat so sharing the driving when we're out together isn't possible. If I tried to turn right onto a roundabout (as you do on the Continent) forgetting which country I was in? Even the little 'back road' that I take to the gym, there are a few places where you have to be extra-careful - a narrow bridge, foliage grown up obscuring view, sharp bends etc - and there have been instances of someone leaving the road and ending up in the drainage ditch at the side.

red_devil

if someone gives up driving then the money they save on the car costs, they can put towards taxis?

lostinrates

red_devil wrote: »

if someone gives up driving then the money they save on the car costs, they can put towards taxis?

In this particular geographic location and lifestyle its not going to be much help. A bit like offsetting the costs of giving up a goldfish against keeping small pet whale. I would happily suggest they spend all savings on taxis, but that suggests of course that they won't need those savings in the future....