Job center and mental health

[Deleted User]

I do not understand how anyone would not ''want to get better''

Who wants to constantly feel like sh*t with low mood and suicidal feelings???

People do need help and sometimes the appropriate help isn't out there or many people do not want to be on medication ( and the side effects can be pretty bad )

Surely everyone wants to feel good and be productive if they CAN be , just haven't personally met anyone who doesn't 'want to get better' and feel better about things and actually have a happy life and strive towards that

seven-day-weekend

cazzap06 wrote: »

I do not understand how anyone would not ''want to get better''

Who wants to constantly feel like sh*t with low mood and suicidal feelings???

People do need help and sometimes the appropriate help isn't out there or many people do not want to be on medication ( and the side effects can be pretty bad )

Surely everyone wants to feel good and be productive if they CAN be , just haven't personally met anyone who doesn't 'want to get better' and feel better about things and actually have a happy life and strive towards that

They would take medication if they had cancer, or diabetes. Why not for depression?

I do know some drugs, especially anti-psychotics, have horrible side effects, but there are many drugs out there and there will almost certainly be one that will help to heighten their mood, without unbearable side effects.

My husband had some that made him manic and suicidal, so the Dr changed them. My friend refused to take the ones that made her double her body weight (she has only just lost the weight and did not want to put it on again), so the Dr found something else. She doesn't want to take any medication but realises she can't cope without it.

The people I know who seem to wallow in it I think probably have had the personality disorder, now I have read about it, where they just want to inflict their misery on everyone else, but otherwise do nothing about it.

FBaby

~Chameleon~ wrote: »

Then you have absolutely no clue or experience of such illnesses. No point in continuing to try convince you otherwise. You've obviously made up your mind that we can cure ourselves if we so wish!

ETA: Oh and by the way, I can't remember whether you were the one who claimed exercise would cure all but just wanted to say that it's not always the case. I exercise regularly, often every day, sometimes doing 3-4 classes a day back to back. This hasn't cured me of bipolar and can often throw me into hypomania if I'm not careful.

Also, for someone in depression, they often lack the motivation to exercise no matter how beneficial the endorphins released might be for them.

mmm, indeed, you got me confused... you are also drawing false conclusions from what you read. Where did I ever used the word 'cure'? I consider 'learning to cope with' a positive outcome in many instances and would never claim that depression can be CURED by anything, not even drugs. However, I do believe that learning to cope with an illness, whatever the illness, will always come easier if one is prepared to fight for it.

But I will repeat myself, my comments were not aimed at such serious mental illness as bi-polar (which I do know much about).

FBaby

sparkycat2 wrote: »

In my opinion GPs should not be permitted to make a mental health diagnosis, they should have to refer patients to psychiatrists. This should at the very least be required if the person is on long-term benefits.

While those who have been repeatedly long stay hospital in patients treated for very severe mental illness should in my opinion never be treated by the benefit system as if they are or may not be genuine or that they are choosing to stay ill or not working due to being lazy or wallowing in self pity. I doubt many people would choose to repeatedly live in a psychiatric hospital for months or over a year, be on a secure ward, put in a padded cell, take high dosages of drugs with side-effects ranging from rapid weight gain to Parkinsons like symptoms that can become permanent, given electroshock convulsive therapy, and been able to fool hospital staff including multiple psychiatrists over multiple long stays of months to over a year as an hospital in patient and years of out patient care.

Totally agree with that, but how many people trying to claim benefits for depression/anxiety have spent recent time in psychiatric hospital? It doesn't appear to be the case of OP. It's those who have never seen a psychiatrist I have an issue with, not those seriously ill.

sparkycat2

~Chameleon~ wrote: »

Am I right in assuming you're an RMN Sparkycat?

No my experience of mental health issues is from a close family member who has severe mental illness and friends they have made while in hospital, and while attending therapy groups, drop in day centres, coffee groups, etc. I have also spent many hours visiting my relative in hospital, or with them visiting the friends they have made in while in hospital, who now live in residential care homes or sheltered housing, my relative while not hospital lives with me as they are unable to live independently.

sparkycat2

FBaby wrote: »

I consider 'learning to cope with' a positive outcome in many instances and would never claim that depression can be CURED by anything, not even drugs. However, I do believe that learning to cope with an illness, whatever the illness, will always come easier if one is prepared to fight for it.

But I will repeat myself, my comments were not aimed at such serious mental illness as bi-polar (which I do know much about).

Unipolar Depression can also be very serious, people who make real suicide attempts, as opposed to cries for help where the expect or seek help to save them, usually succeed in killing themselves or only survive by happenstance, and people with depression can be self neglecting or catatonic or obsessive or delusional and even psychotic.

While bipolar covers both very serious and less debilitating conditions.

Bipolar I severe with psychosis.
Bipolar I severe mania but no psychosis
Bipolar I moderate mania
Bipolar I mild mania
Bipolar I with only one episode of mania but that was with psychosis
Bipolar I with only one episode of mania

Bipolar II. No mania episode, only hypomania and depressive episodes

Cyclothymia. Some hypomania symptoms and moderate depressive episodes

Mood disorder not otherwise specified also known as subthreshold bipolar disorder.


You also have those who are diagnosed with borderline personality disorder also known as emotionallly unstable personality disorder.

sparkycat2

One of the things I dislike is the closing down of things like work therapy, art, gardening, pottery, etc. With qualified experienced staff focusing on building people up with a focus on quality of life. That people enjoyed and wanted to attend and had waiting lists. Those attending these groups were diverse, mental illness or mental health problems, learning difficulties and behavioural problems, stroke, etc.

These have been replaced by work recovery with fewer places. I assume because of funding cuts and hopes of ESA funding as work related activity, although they are still currently mostly funded by the NHS and Local Authority.

These operate as a pretend factory with monotonous repetitive work, people expected to turn up every day and on time and leave at going home time, and having targets, and being set challenges and given assessments. With inexperienced staff treating people like children. They set some people inappropriate challenges which ends up with them failing to cope and being effectively set back or ending up missing as someone who should not be out on their own may get sent off to the shops or expected them to use public transport on their own despite being distressed at the prospect or telling staff they are not suppose to do that. They also put pressure on people to do volunteer work at shops, etc. The whole focus seems to be on getting to a point where they can declare you are now able enough to go look for work.

If someone is disruptive they get told to leave and banned for a month and told if they misbehave again they will not be allowed to come back at all. If the person turns up while banned seeking help they refuse to talk to them. They do not bother to contact or inform anyone else of the person's state of mind or health. If they do not leave and become distraught the staff phone the police

They have also closed down or reduced hours of many of the drop in day centres and in some cases replaced them with coffee mornings in public restaurants apparently to increase public awareness of mental health issues. Some put a notice on the tables so everyone knows those sitting around the tables have mental health problems. Just like the work recovery those who are disruptive are not welcome, told to leave, banned, and the staff refuse to talk to them or help them just telling them to go away. If they do not leave they can end up being wrestled to the ground and police phoned.

The focus seems to have shifted from supporting people and improving their quality of life, to challenging them to make them able to function in society and be work capable and expecting them to meet those challenges, even if that is an inappropriate expectation given their state of health or a highly unlikely outcome given their level of disability and care needs.

They also seem to be not competent at dealing with people with learning difficulties and behavioural problems or people with mental illness when they are distressed, disruptive or unwell and do not assist the person or get them suitable assistance or inform anyone about the person's state.

If the person goes missing or turns up dead, they just say it is the person's care team or doctors fault. If the person turns up dead they go contact the deceased person's relatives and turn up at the funeral to pay their respects, they also suggest having a collection box or donations instead of flowers. Money to go towards the help they provide.

dktreesea

Dunroamin wrote: »

I think that there has always been an expectation that everybody should want to work and that they should do so if they're able. Working should never be a choice (unless one has the money to live from elsewhere) and we've got things very wrong if this is the way that it's now viewed.

I've worked for several organisations that employed people with a disability or an illness and I never saw them treated with anything other than sympathy and a helpful attitude during their difficult times.

You must have worked for some awful places to have the negative views on employment that you seem to have.

Working is always a choice. And in Britain, where the benefits are so generous, it is actually possible to get more on benefits than from minimum wage work, is it really so surprising that people will organise their lives to take advantage of that situation and choose not to work?

If benefits were really capped at a certain percentage of the poverty line, and NMW were increased to be a living wage, such that being on it didn't entitle you to any benefits, a lot more people may choose to work full time than currently do. When the rules for a household with children is that there has to be a total of 24 hours a week worked in order to maxximise the benefits entitlement, is it any wonder that so many families who prefer free time to work would take advantage of this?

Leaving aside people with any kind of debilitating condition, the only group that the government have thus far attempted to kerb regarding their benefit entitlements is the low income self employed. Some of whom are already shutting down their businesses and going on JSA, just so they can preserve their benefit entitlements.

If the government wants to force people to make a choice to work rather than stay free and unencumbered with the strain of work at other people's expense, it's not enough to make work pay. They also have to address the other side of the equation and keep benefits down to subsistence level only.

As to having a negative view on employment, I have dealt with a fair number of employers over the years just in the course of my work and my impression, in today's climate, is that if they suspected the person has any kind of physical or mental impairment, they wouldn't take them on. I've met employers who wouldn't take on anyone who was overweight, because, as one guy put it, people who have a food addiction are, in his view, not dealing properly with something challenging in their lives. Another one put it to me like this: "If they are not prepared to look after themselves and manage their physical health properly, how can I expect them to look after my business?" Other people don't want to be embroiled in the possibility of being taken to an employment tribunal, so they avoid taking on people they suspect have mental health issues. Are they all being negative? Yes, in one way. But they are also being practical.

Dogger69

cazzap06 wrote: »

I do not understand how anyone would not ''want to get better''

Who wants to constantly feel like sh*t with low mood and suicidal feelings???

People do need help and sometimes the appropriate help isn't out there or many people do not want to be on medication ( and the side effects can be pretty bad )

Surely everyone wants to feel good and be productive if they CAN be , just haven't personally met anyone who doesn't 'want to get better' and feel better about things and actually have a happy life and strive towards that

This shows a poor understanding of mental illness. Those in a severe depressive episode will know that they do not want to feel like they do, but may also have forgotten what happy or content is. They may see only one way out of their situation, and it is not getting better.

What you describe could apply to someone that is very unhappy, but severe mental illness comes with illogical thought patterns, so conventional thinking goes out the window. You wouldn't automatically assume someone with a brain injury would want to/ know how to feel happy, so why would you with severe mental illness?

FBaby

Why has this thread turned into a discussion as what constitute clinical severe mental health disorders when the point was about those who DON'T suffer from such illnesses yet believe they should be entitled to ESA rather than focusing on getting better?