Job center and mental health

sparkycat2

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

I agree with FBaby to a certain extent. I have also seen people who, whilst not severely depressed, hved got themselves into 'victim mode' and spent all their time moaning and groaning about their lot, and expecting others to improve things for them, whilst making no effort themselves.

Unless you know their normal personality so you know they are not their normal self, or you have a magic medical test to tell precisely how ill they are. I do not see how someone can say they just cannot be bothered to get well, and instead want to wallow in feeling sorry for themselves and have other people feel sorry for them if the person suffers from a mood effecting mental illness. Mood effective disorders tend to affect mood, how do you know they do not feel miserable and cannot be bothered to do anything because they are ill?

The reason I used bipolar as an example in an earlier post is because unlike unipolar you also see the person at variations of the other extreme, where they are hyper active, overly happy, etc. due to the illness, and at the extreme end manic and in some cases psychotic.

With mental illness the severity, duration, frequency of episodes and the functional level and stability between episodes seems highly dependent on the illness not the sufferes personality. Mental illnesses are no blame illnesses, it is wrong in my opinion to seek to blame the sufferer for being ill or failing to get better.

If it is personality making them unable to function then they have a personality disorder.

seven-day-weekend

sparkycat2 wrote: »

Unless you know their normal personality so you know they are not their normal self, or you have a magic medical test to tell precisely how ill they are. I do not see how someone can say they just cannot be bothered to get well, and instead want to wallow in feeling sorry for themselves and have other people feel sorry for them if the person suffers from a mood effecting mental illness. Mood effective disorders tend to affect mood, how do you know they do not feel miserable and cannot be bothered to do anything because they are ill?

The reason I used bipolar as an example in an earlier post is because unlike unipolar you also see the person at variations of the other extreme, where they are hyper active, overly happy, etc. due to the illness, and at the extreme end manic and in some cases psychotic.

With mental illness the severity, duration, frequency of episodes and the functional level and stability between episodes seems highly dependent on the illness not the sufferes personality. Mental illnesses are no blame illnesses, it is wrong in my opinion to seek to blame the sufferer for being ill or failing to get better.

If it is personality making them unable to function then they have a personality disorder.

I do know about bi-polar depression, a dear friend of mine had it and committed suicide at the age of only 34. He was never 'normal', he was either on the way up or the way down - when he committed suicide he was as near to normal as he ever got and therefore could see nothing other than severe disabling mood swings for the rest of his life. He hated the 'downs' and he got in to trouble and debt when he was on the highs. He also hated taking lithium. He committed suicide by taking all his own tablets and all his girlfriend's.

My friend with severe depression has also been both psychotic and suicidal. I have had to take all her medication off her on occasions and just give her back the dose. So I do know about these things.


I know not everyone gets well (In fact I would say that most sufferers of severe depression don't ever get completely well). My husband hasn't got completely well (although he has improved greatly since that awful black time when it first hit). My friend has got better, but she still has a severe mental health problem, and it will probably come back to hit her with all its force in the future . Most people, do improve to a certain extent and most are able to manage their symptoms to a certain extent, for much of the time.

However I still maintain that there are some people who chose to define themselves by their illness and don't appear to want to get better, or even try to cope, if it involves more effort than waving a wand.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

Edited to add: I wish I COULD wave a wand and have this dreadful illness disappear. I wish I could wave a wand and have my husband and my friend not have to suffer. But-one can do that, they have to work on it themselves, when they are able, usually with help from medication, counselling and other support.

FBaby

I do not in any way refuse the fact that there are forms of depression that are purely physiological and that need a lot more help than a kick in the butt. True bi-polar (rather than self-diagnosed) is certainly one of them.

However, not only are these most likely to respond to the RIGHT medication and doses, but similar to those whose depression/anxiety is personality driven, they are still much more likely to recover (or cope with their illness) better if they are prepared to make the efforts to do so.

Nevertheless, depression as a 'personality disorders' seems to be the most growing type of depression and was indeed the one I was focusing on when referring to the drive to help one-self.

My experience of working with people suffering from depression and anxiety has shown me that people deal with it very differently. Some refuse to consider any exercises that could help themselves, saying they couldn't find the energy to even start, yet have endless energy to talk about their troubles. Then suddenly some would decide that enough was enough, be fully committed to working with staff and nothing could stop them. Some seem to be almost frighten to get better and got more comfort from receiving pity than encouragements. Some faced their depression as a challenge and embraced it as a battle.

Unfortunately, I believe that people nowadays expect a lot more from others than from themselves and that often affects their ability to deal with challenges.

~Chameleon~

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

I do know about bi-polar depression, a dear friend of mine had it and committed suicide at the age of only 34. He was never 'normal', he was either on the way up or the way down - when he committed suicide he was as near to normal as he ever got and therefore could see nothing other than severe disabling mood swings for the rest of his life. He hated the 'downs' and he got in to trouble and debt when he was on the highs. He also hated taking lithium. He committed suicide by taking all his own tablets and all his girlfriend's.

My friend with severe depression has also been both psychotic and suicidal. I have had to take all her medication off her on occasions and just give her back the dose. So I do know about these things.

However I still maintain that there are some people who chose to define themselves by their illness and don't appear to want to get better, or even try to cope, if it involves more effort than waving a wand.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

I'm wondering whether the ones you might refer to are the ones whom, how shall I put it...are faking depression/anxiety in order to gain benefits? I certainly know of one or two people who fit this category!

~Chameleon~

FBaby wrote: »

I do not in any way refuse the fact that there are forms of depression that are purely physiological and that need a lot more help than a kick in the butt. True bi-polar (rather than self-diagnosed) is certainly one of them.

In what cases would bipolar be self-diagnosed? It often takes a psychiatrist several years to even recognise and diagnose the symptoms. Indeed in my case it was around 15 years! It isn't the type of illness that can be self-diagnosed any more than cancer can can be!

System

~Chameleon~ wrote: »

In what cases would bipolar be self-diagnosed? It often takes a psychiatrist several years to even recognise and diagnose the symptoms. Indeed in my case it was around 15 years! It isn't the type of illness that can be self-diagnosed any more than cancer can can be!

11 years for me in total from onset of being mentally ill to my psych diagnosing me. Though it was more a year or so since i started seeing my psych.

seven-day-weekend

~Chameleon~ wrote: »

I'm wondering whether the ones you might refer to are the ones whom, how shall I put it...are faking depression/anxiety in order to gain benefits? I certainly know of one or two people who fit this category!

Maybe. I hadn't actually thought that though. I'm thinking of people who like the attention they get through being ill so they don't particularly want to help themselves because it makes them feel better if others do things for them.

~Chameleon~

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

Maybe. I hadn't actually thought that though. I'm thinking of people who like the attention they get through being ill so they don't particularly want to help themselves because it makes them feel better if others do things for them.

There will always be those who will swing the lead and do anything to avoid going out to work. It's just unfortunate they often become confused by some with those of us who do suffer with a chronic disabling mental illness.

Arachne_2

~Chameleon~ wrote: »

In what cases would bipolar be self-diagnosed? It often takes a psychiatrist several years to even recognise and diagnose the symptoms. Indeed in my case it was around 15 years! It isn't the type of illness that can be self-diagnosed any more than cancer can can be!

About 8 years for me until a consultant psych I was seeing finally hit on it, and started treatment accordingly.

~Chameleon~ wrote:

There will always be those who will swing the lead and do anything to avoid going out to work. It's just unfortunate they often become confused by some with those of us who do suffer with a chronic disabling mental illness.

Agreed.

sparkycat2

~Chameleon~ wrote: »

It often takes a psychiatrist several years to even recognise and diagnose the symptoms. Indeed in my case it was around 15 years!

xXMessedUpXx wrote: »

11 years for me in total from onset of being mentally ill to my psych diagnosing me. Though it was more a year or so since i started seeing my psych.

Arachne wrote: »

About 8 years for me until a consultant psych I was seeing finally hit on it, and started treatment accordingly.

In my experience it takes a lot less time for people at the severe end, those with bipolar who are in mania running around deranged unable to sit still or hold a coherent conversation, or who are psychotic and have lost touch with reality, highly delusional or having hallucinations. Likewise those with depression who are suicidal and only still alive by chance, not some cry for help where they seek or expect help to turn up and save them, or those who are self neglecting or catatonic. Being held in a psychiatric hospital results in rather rapid diagnosis and start of treatment.

FBaby wrote: »

However, not only are these most likely to respond to the RIGHT medication and doses, but similar to those whose depression/anxiety is personality driven, they are still much more likely to recover (or cope with their illness) better if they are prepared to make the efforts to do so.

The prognosis for depression is
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/medical-conditions/a-z-of-medical-conditions/depressive-illness/prognosis-and-duration/

The average length of a depressive episode is about 6 months but about 25% of people have episodes lasting more than a year and about 10-20% develop a chronic unremitting course.
It is not possible to specify with accuracy the duration of any individual depressive episode, as people with severe disability usually respond well to treatment.
For infrequent repeated episodes it would be reasonable to award for a limited period initially whilst awaiting the outcome of response to treatment.
In the great majority of cases any evident care needs will only be for a limited period, which is unlikely to exceed several months during any one episode.
There is evidence that the prognosis is worse in older people.

The prognosis for bipolar is
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/medical-conditions/a-z-of-medical-conditions/bipolar/prognosis-and-duration/

Although recovery from an individual episode of mania or depression can be expected, the long-term prognosis for people with bipolar disorders is poorer than might be anticipated. Long - term studies (25 years) show that on average a person with bipolar disorder will have ten further episodes of mood disturbance. The time interval between episodes tends to shorten with increasing numbers of episodes and increasing age. Although treatment of an individual episode of mania or depression symptoms may be relatively effective, people continue to have disabling symptoms affecting daily life, social interaction and ability to work.

Most people I know who suffer mental illness are at the severe end, repeat long stay hospital in patients for months or over a year each time. Some when not in hospital live in residential care homes or sheltered accommodation, or are released into the care of relatives. They may never make a full recover despite their efforts. Others appear perfectly normal and fully functioning, but are effectively walking on an unseen tightrope, they wobble quite often becoming slightly unwell and can fall off becoming rapidly severely ill requiring urgent admission to hospital. Many despite their best efforts to stay well and being permanently on medication and regularly seeing medical professionals fall ill again and again over the years. Others die due to being delusional or sucidal.